Zimmerman

[Embar Angylwrath]

So.. the Florida DA charges Zimmerman with second degree murder.

I don't know what happened on that tragic day, but there's no way he'll get convicted of second degree murder. I doubt a judge will even let it go to trial on that count. In the affidavit, the prosecution makes no connection between what happened, and the elements of second degree murder, which are:

1. The victim is dead;
2. The death was caused by the criminal act of the defendant;
3. There was an unlawful killing of the victim by an act imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human life.

The only one that the prosecution met was #1. There was no indication that the prosecution beleives Zimmerman intended to harm Martin, until both of them were in a struggle. Defending yourself in a struggle is not a criminal act. Number three is a stretch too, as it goes to the state of mind.

If there is any evidence at all that Martin exacerbated the situation by wanting to fight, or that in a fight, Martin was the agressor, then Zimmerman walks. The DA over-reached, should have went for some version of manslaughter.

Also, in the affidavit, the DA blatantly lies about the conversation between the dispatcher and Zimmerman, and I have no idea why she would do that, did she even listen to the tape? She says that Zimmerman disobeyed a dispatcher reuqest to not follow Martin. I heard the tapes, the dispatcher asks "Are you following him" Zimmerman replies in the affirmative. The dispatcher then says "We don't need you to do that". That was a statement, not a request, nor was it advice. If someone said that to me, I would interpret it as it was optional to follow Martin, and by doing so, I would assume risk to myself.

This has turned into a political football, and its become racial, even when there's no evidence at all that Zimmerman's actions were racially motivated. When you have the media describing Zimmerman as a "white hispanic" (wtf is that? are there white blacks? white asians?), you know its an attempt to paint this as a racial thing.

[Partha]

Sure, every teenage kid confronted by an armed, older, heavier man wants to fight. I love how you managed to ignore the fact that the cops told him not to pursue Martin and he did anyways. Last I heard, disobeying the police is a criminal act.

[Embar Angylwrath]

On further review of the affidavit... there is no mention of the police report. None. No mention of the officer's observations of Zimmerman. It appears that all the asserions in that affidavit are all based on heresay and speculation (with the excpetion that Martin is dead, and everyone agrees, even Zimmerman, that Zimmerman shot Martin).

Some other notes:
1. A "confrontation" isn't illegal, in and of itself. And they don't describe the confrontation as harassment or threatening. If you walk up to someone and ask what they are doing or who they are, you are confronting the person, but that's not illegal.
2. Martin's girlfiend account of the incidnet doesn't match up with the facts. She says she heard the confrontation, but she was on the line with Martin at the same time Zimmerman was on the line with dispatcher. She lost ocntact with Martin before Zimmerman did, and the screams on the 911 call happen well after she lost contact with Martin. Simply put, if she either heard something that she, in hindsight, beleives was a confrontation (remember she's a young kid that just lost her boyfriend), or she's lying.
3. The DA is going to take a greiving mother's opinion that the voice she hears on a 911 call tape are her sones as fact? Whoa! Really?

The DA fails to mention the EYE-WITNESSES that say they saw Martin on top of Zimmerman. Fails to mention that Zimmerman was treated for injuries to the back of his head and the front of his head. Failedto mention that the police on scene noted that Zimmerman was injured, and his back was wet. Failed to mention that Marin was "face down" in the grass, which is unlikely to happen if you're shot while laying on your back.

This kind of proecutorial conduct reminds me of Mike Nifong.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Sure, every teenage kid confronted by an armed, older, heavier man wants to fight. I love how you managed to ignore the fact that the cops told him not to pursue Martin and he did anyways. Last I heard, disobeying the police is a criminal act.

The cops didn't tell him that Partha. Listen to the 911 call. The dispatcher (not a cop by the way) said "we don't need you to do that". That's not an order, or even a request. Its an observation thats open ended.

And how do you know Martin knew Zimmerman was armed? You're engaging in the same ype of race-baiting speculation that others are doing.

[Harlowe]

Wow, jokingly I thought "I bet Embar is whining in his inner circles about how unfairly Zimmerman is being treated in the LIBRUL MEDIA". I didn't however think you'd post about it.

What the hell did Martin do wrong to be followed by this asshole anyway? What illegal activity was Martin participating in. Martin was the one entitled to the "stand your ground" protection, fending off some asshole that was following just because he was a black kid in a hoody. Did you listen to what a bigoted, itching to fight asshole he was on that call? And they did tell him "we don't need you to do that" whether that's a dispatcher or the police doesn't matter, he was told it wasn't something they needed him to do. But he was out to get this guy. A guy doing nothing but "looking suspicious" to him.

Zimmerman has a violent, criminal past and shouldn't have even been carrying that gun to begin with.

I know you're going to grasp at straws for reasons why Zimmerman is the victim here, because that's EXACTLY how Fox news has been trying to play it and you are in lock step with them. I reserved judgement waiting to hear everything coming out about this and the more that comes out, the more guilty he looks.

It wasn't Zimmerman calling the cops about being followed by some suspicious black kid.

[Jarochai Alabaster]

The DA is adamant that they have sufficient evidence to get a conviction on second-degree murder, but won't disclose what it is until they're in the courtroom. So we'll see how it plays out. With the current evidence available, Zimmerman sure looks guilty as fuck. Of course, that doesn't mean much. The Ramseys looked guilty as fuck too in the JonBenet case, but developments within the last decade have completely exonerated them.

[Jarochai Alabaster]

What the hell did Martin do wrong to be followed by this asshole anyway?

Apparently standing under the complex's Clubhouse awning to wait out the rain is "suspicious activity." Oh, but it was after dark, so he must have been up to no good. Clearly he was going to use Skittles to break into peoples' homes.

I wonder how Zimmerman would have reacted had it been an attractive teenage girl standing under the awning.

[Harlowe]

It will be interesting to see what they have. He looks guilty as hell, but I just want justice to prevail no matter what that is.

Of course people are going to cry out for justice for a teenager shot dead, that's freakin being human, but pounding your chest for the shooter, especially at least knowing these facts....

1. A teenager was walking home from a store unarmed.
2. There is no claim that this teenager was doing anything criminal.
3. Adult male in truck watches teenager.
4. Adult male follows after teenager.
5. Some kind of physical struggle happens between adult and teenager.
6. Adult shoots and kills teen.

We should care that a teenager was shot and killed by an adult, even if there was an altercation, you don't get to just kill people that look suspicious. We should want people that kill others and claim self-defense to still go through the system and have their guilt or innocence determined. We can't have people just getting into fights and then shooting each other and in this case an adult shot a minor.

[Ddrak]

the EYE-WITNESSES

These are notoriously unreliable. In fact, eye-witnesses to any sort of violent altercation rarely remember many details at all and instead (unconsciously) invent it after the fact.

As a DA you go for what you think you'll get then settle for what you can get. He'll probably accept a plea deal for manslaughter.

Dd

[Embar Angylwrath]

the EYE-WITNESSES

These are notoriously unreliable. In fact, eye-witnesses to any sort of violent altercation rarely remember many details at all and instead (unconsciously) invent it after the fact.

As a DA you go for what you think you'll get then settle for what you can get. He'll probably accept a plea deal for manslaughter.

Dd

An eye-witness would surely be able to recall which person wearing the grey hoodie was on top or on bottom of a fight. Extend your eye-witness observation to a young girls listening to a cell phone conversation and a mother saying the yells for help on a 911 tape are her sons, and what do you have? Nothing. Less than eye-witness testimony in fact, but that's what the DA is trotting out as bricks in the case they are building against Zimmerman.

You didn't address the lack of the police report on scene, either.

As to your second point, I think that's right in most cases, not in this one. She's over-reaching in hopes of gettng him to plea bargain. This guy is going to walk on this charge unless the DA has camera footage of the event showing something something substantially different than Zimmerman's statement.

@Harlowe/Jaro - Both of you are conflating that fact that a young man is dead with guilt of Zimmerman on 2nd degree murder. Don't get me wrong, I think Zimmerman, through his actions, definately contributred to the death of Martin. His death was avoidable (as are most deaths not caused by disease or old age). That doesn't make him guilty of 2nd degree murder. As I stated in a previous post, I think the prosecutor could nail him on some version of manslaughter. But as it stands, what we know of the case doesn't support a charge of 2nd degree murder.

Don't take my word of it. Since the affidavit has been released, there's been a scathing rerbuke of it by most of the legal community. The consensus is that based on the info in the affidavit, a judge is likely to toss the case.

[Embar Angylwrath]

With the current evidence available, Zimmerman sure looks guilty as fuck.

Guilty of what? Remember this is a crime that happenend in Florida, and he is charged with Florida's definition of 2nd degree murder. I'd like to hear your (and Halrowe's) argument as to how Zimmerman met the elements of 2nd degree murder under Florida statute.

I know it's tempting to say he did it because your emotions tell you he did it, but what is there in the public universe that supports a charge of 2nd degree murder under Florida law? I just don't see it.

@Harlowe...
Ok, so Zimmerman followed Martin. So? When is that a crime? Have you never taken notice ofsomeone and follwed them? I have. I've even "confronted" people by asking them who they were and why were they where they were. Its a typical thing to do in the Midwest when you see someone you don't recognize. What's so wrong about that?

If Zimmerman threatened Martin, either implicitly or explicitly, that's a crime. If Zimmerman attempted to unlawfully detain Martin, that's a crime (Federal, on the Civil Rights level). If Zimmerman asked Martin what he was doing there, and it escalated into a fight... that's not a crime. Or at least, there was no crime intended.

[Jarochai Alabaster]

Ok, so Zimmerman followed Martin. So? When is that a crime? Have you never taken notice ofsomeone and follwed them? I have. I've even "confronted" people by asking them who they were and why were they where they were. Its a typical thing to do in the Midwest when you see someone you don't recognize. What's so wrong about that?

Zimmerman didn't ask Martin who he was and what he was doing there. He hung back and stalked him. That's aggressive behavior.

Zimmerman could have stopped, rolled down his window, and asked Martin why he was standing under the clubhouse awning. He didn't. He didn't want to confront or deter, he wanted to catch. This is evident in Zimmerman's own call to police - he was certain Martin was a criminal, and incensed at the idea of him getting away. If he had just talked to Martin, he may have even realized "Hey! I could be a decent human being and offer him a ride home so he isn't stuck out in the rain!"

But he couldn't do that. Instead he chose to stalk and terrorize an unarmed 17-year old. Zimmerman forced the confrontation that resulted in Zimmerman shooting Martin. Zimmerman's the clear aggressor based on the current evidence, and it's gonna take quite a bit to exonerate him. Like actual evidence that his life was in danger from a 17 year old with Skittles. Pretty much every scrap of evidence thus far is stacked against him.

[Jarochai Alabaster]

I'd also like to point out that I live in the midwest, and I have never stalked someone in a neighborhood and "confronted" them to find out what they were doing. Nor do I know anyone else who has been stalked in such a manner, nor do I know anyone who has done so to someone they saw. Your anecdote is irrelevant.

[Fallakin Kuvari]

Ok, so Zimmerman followed Martin. So? When is that a crime? Have you never taken notice ofsomeone and follwed them? I have. I've even "confronted" people by asking them who they were and why were they where they were. Its a typical thing to do in the Midwest when you see someone you don't recognize. What's so wrong about that?

Zimmerman didn't ask Martin who he was and what he was doing there. He hung back and stalked him. That's aggressive behavior.

You know this to be a factual statement? If so, please state how.

Zimmerman could have stopped, rolled down his window, and asked Martin why he was standing under the clubhouse awning. He didn't. He didn't want to confront or deter, he wanted to catch. This is evident in Zimmerman's own call to police - he was certain Martin was a criminal, and incensed at the idea of him getting away. If he had just talked to Martin, he may have even realized "Hey! I could be a decent human being and offer him a ride home so he isn't stuck out in the rain!"

If you have some sort of factual transcript of what happened between the time Zimmerman was on the phone with police and the accounts of all the eyewitnesses, then by all means please do share.

But he couldn't do that. Instead he chose to stalk and terrorize an unarmed 17-year old. He forced the confrontation that resulted in Zimmerman shooting Martin. Zimmerman's the clear aggressor based on the current evidence, and it's gonna take quite a bit to exonerate him. Like actual evidence that his life was in danger from a 17 year old with Skittles. Pretty much every scrap of evidence thus far is stacked against him.

Allegedly. The actual fact of the matter is that we don't know what transpired between the time Zimmerman got off the phone with the 911 operator and the first eye-witness accounts (which aren't always based on good hard facts).

[Ddrak]

An eye-witness would surely be able to recall which person wearing the grey hoodie was on top or on bottom of a fight. Extend your eye-witness observation to a young girls listening to a cell phone conversation and a mother saying the yells for help on a 911 tape are her sons, and what do you have? Nothing. Less than eye-witness testimony in fact, but that's what the DA is trotting out as bricks in the case they are building against Zimmerman.

The recorded yells for help are better than the eyewitness account, for sure. Girl's account... not so much. Most eyewitnesses break completely under cross examination while a recording can't.

Position of two people struggling with a gun involved is pretty irrelevant. Can't read anything either way from that.

Zimmerman is definitely guilty of manslaughter here - created the situation and boy ended up dead. Classic manslaughter. He'd be smart to take a plea bargain because as far as I know, failing to get second degree murder to stick doesn't mean manslaughter still won't.

Dd

[Kulaf]

It must be listed as a lesser included charge.....which is totally up to the DA. Some DA's do not include lesser charges because they want a conviction only on the charge they do include. If the DA only charges him with 2nd degree, I don't think there is any way they can meet their burdon of proof with the evidence they have.

[Fallakin Kuvari]

It must be listed as a lesser included charge.....which is totally up to the DA. Some DA's do not include lesser charges because they want a conviction only on the charge they do include. If the DA only charges him with 2nd degree, I don't think there is any way they can meet their burdon of proof with the evidence they have.

This. This is exactly why Casey Anthony turned out how it did.

[Ddrak]

Just to point out how unreliable eyewitnesses are, I'm not sure which eyewitness Embar is referring to but there's another one that says Zimmerman was on top and no altercation happened prior to the gunshots. Yet another one describes an "injured animal" type of whining right up to the gunshot, where it stopped (implying Martin was seriously hurt by that point).

Zimmerman's back being wet and Martin's position are basically irrelevant given the two were most likely in a physical wrestle at the time. Martin's position just tells you how Zimmerman left him, not how he was shot.

On the criteria, it's a fair bet you could get a jury to convict. First you load the jury with people biased to the prosecution (not too hard in this case). Then you go through the points:

1. The victim is dead - easy.
2. The death was caused by the criminal act of the defendant - paint a picture of Zimmerman going all vigilante, draw in his history and play up the race card juxtaposed with the fact Martin seems anything but typical. Zimmerman's 911 call certainly helps here.
3. There was an unlawful killing of the victim by an act imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human life - easy. Once you've established in the jury's mind that Zimmerman was hunting Martin to prove point #2, this one follows easily. In fact, you've basically proven Murder 1 at that point and you play to that as well, allowing a benefit of the doubt to go down to #2. Jurys don't care too much about the law at that point.

Really though, it all hinges on how you can play the jury and who's in the jury. Nothing to do with fact at all.

Dd

[Harlowe]

I think on a personal level this guy is fucked. In jail, out of jail...he's not going to be safe. But if you kill someone instead of incapacitate them for your own safety, the consequences are on you. Especially when you instigated the entire situation. Just speculation, but maybe his magistrate father shouldn't have gotten him out of the other violent fuck-ups he has gotten into and he would have learned a bit about self-control and consequences.

[Torakus]

Zimmerman didn't ask Martin who he was and what he was doing there. He hung back and stalked him. That's aggressive behavior.

You have a strange definition of aggressive. Maybe Zimmerman was being passive-aggressive

In the end it doesn't matter if Trayvon became the aggressor after Zimmerman confronted him. Zimmerman created a situation that could result in confrontation and he did so while armed. If he didn't plan to or know how to de-escalate the potential confrontation, then he should have never been armed.

Either way I think Zimmerman was an idiot and he definitely caused this kid's death. Because we lack a system with professional jurors, I think it will be pretty easy to get him convicted, even though I think Embar is completely right that in a perfect system the criteria for 2nd degree murder as written would be hard to prove. If they don't convict this turd, then hopefully the civil courts will make the rest of his life hellish.

By the way I don't think the whole grown man vs. kid argument holds much water. I know from just wrestling around with my 20 year old son who is Martin's size that his punches and kicks can do considerable damage even to a guy my size of over 6 feet tall and north of 300 lbs. While it has not happened to me personally I see kids Martin's size bully grown adults on the buses and BART in Oakland and San Francisco on a daily basis. They do it because they know that these folks will just defer to them and move to a different car or get off the bus at the next stop without conflict. I sense that they don't try it with me because they imagine that I might be hungry enough to eat them.

Tora