Cutting off the fringe

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Harlowe
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Cutting off the fringe

Post by Harlowe »

With all the fucking crazy being embraced by the RNC, there is one site that has always given me that smidge of hope things could change and there could be a rational, thoughtful opposition to the DNC, so I wanted to post some things from it. I wish the RNC would pay attention to this, they absolutely need something akin to Buckley rather than a Limbaugh as it's party media "lion" - the return of intellectual elitism in their own party rather than deriding intellectuals. That is a party I can respect. That is a party I may actually support, if it drops it's gay- marriage-will-destroy-American-families canard and adopts a more libertarian live and let live attitude. As a side note, I'm not for the typical bullshit that comes to mind when you say libertarian like total "bootstrap" mentalities or "glibertarianism" (as Partha likes to refer to) bullshit, but social libertarianism isn't a bad thing. It's empowering people to make more decisions for themself. So again, this is a party I can respect, not one that attaches itself to people like Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity, O'Reilly, Palin, Malkin and Coulter, who are people that lie and create cognitive dissonance within the party. A party that refuses to distance itself from fringe elements and movements like the birthers or truthers.

I love knowing there are Conservatives out there than are intelligent and rational.

http://www.thenextright.com/patrick-ruf ... ckley-back
As a fiscal and social conservative, I happen to think Jon is completely in the right here, both substantively and strategically. Don't raise the canard that we ought to be attacking Democrats first. Conservatives are entirely within their rights to have public debates over who will publicly represent them, and who will be allowed to affiliate with the conservative movement.

The Birthers are the latest in a long line of paranoid conspiracy believers of the left and right who happen to attach themselves to notions that simply are not true. Descended from the 9/11 Truthers, the LaRouchies, the North American Union buffs, and way back when, the John Birch Society, the Birthers are hardly a new breed in American politics.

Each and every time they have appeared, mainstream conservatives from William F. Buckley to Ronald Reagan have risen to reject these influences -- and I expect that will be the case once again here.

But there is another subtext that makes Jon's appeal more urgent. As a pretty down-the-line conservative, I don't believe I am alone in noting with disappointment the trivialization, excessive sloganeering, and pettiness that has overtaken the movement of late. In "The Joe the Plumberization of the GOP," I argued that conservatives have grown too comfortable with wearing scorn as a badge of honor, content to play sarcastic second fiddle to the dominant culture of academia and Hollywood with second-rate knock-off institutions. A side effect of this has been a tendency to accept conspiracy nuts as a slightly cranky edge case within the broad continuum of conservatism, rather than as a threat to the movement itself.

Those advocating a tough stand against the Birthers like to point to William F. Buckley and the Birchers.

In founding National Review, Buckley made a point of casting out the conspiracy nuts and the cranks of his day because he saw them as a fundamental threat to a conservatism that was just emerging as a political force. In doing so, he was able to define conservatism for a generation.
The article against the Joe the Plumberization of the GOP

http://www.thenextright.com/patrick-ruf ... of-the-gop
Conservatives should not need Joe the Plumber to prove their middle class bona fides. We are naturally the party of the middle, and we don't need gimmicks to prove it. Demographically, Democrats rely on being the party of the upper sixth and the lower third, while Republicans tend to do better with everyone in between. When we start losing the middle class and the suburbs, we lose big like we did in 2008.

Put another way, Republicans thrive as the party of normal Americans -- the people in the middle culturally and economically. This is true of our leadership as well -- we have a history of nominating figures who came first from outside politics. Our base is the common-sense voter in the middle who bought a house she could afford and didn't lavishly overspend in good times and who is now subsidizing the person who didn't.

When you think about it, a majority built around this solid middle-American base should beat the disjointed liberal rich/poor coalition. This sense of frugality, orderliness, and personal responsibility is something everything aspires to in difficult times. This is why Obama's pitch is fundamentally off-key if framed correctly. People's first instincts in a recession are not to overspend, but to tighten their belts. Obama's address last night assumed that no one is responsible for anything, except maybe corporate CEOs. The banks as institutions are not ultimately responsible. People who took out risky mortgages are not responsible. The Administration is not responsible for sharing in the pain by postponing longer-term projects like health care. And even if they are, everything in a recession is subsumed to the need to throw money at the problem in an attempt to stabilize the system. The risk for Obama in embracing the bailout mentality is that it catches up to you: this is not how ordinary people act in their daily lives without major consequences down the road.

In these serious times, conservatives need to get serious and ditch the gimmicks and the self-referential credentializing and talk to the entire country. If the average apolitical American walked into CPAC or any movement conservative gathering would they feel like they learned something new or that we presented a vision compelling to them in their daily lives? Or would it all be talk of a President from 25 years ago and Adam Smith lapel pins? This is why I love Newt's emphasis on finding 80/20 issues and defining them in completely non-ideological terms. We need to advance our ideas without ever once saying the word "conservative" or "Republican" in a speech. We need to define these ideas not as conservative, but as American. We need to be confident, like the left is, that we are the natural governing party because our ideas are in alignment with basic American principles, and quit treating middle class, working class, or rural Americans like an interest group to be mollified by symbolic, substance-free BS.
http://www.thenextright.com/jon-henke/o ... ldnetdaily
In the 1960's, William F. Buckley denounced the John Birch Society leadership for being "so far removed from common sense" and later said "We cannot allow the emblem of irresponsibility to attach to the conservative banner."

The Birthers are the Birchers of our time, and WorldNetDaily is their pamphlet. The Right has mostly ignored these embarrassing people and organizations, but some people and organizations inexplicably choose to support WND through advertising and email list rental or other collaboration. For instance, I have been told that F.I.R.E (The Foundation for Individual Rights in Education) - an otherwise respectable group that does important work - uses the WND email list. They should stop. [SEE UPDATE II]
UPDATE II

I tried to contact F.I.R.E. yesterday before publishing this and I tried again today, but never received a response. However, David Mastio, Senior Editor for Online Opinion and Innovation at the Washington Times, emails to tell me the response he got from F.I.R.E.
I called Fire and talked to the Veep Robert Shibley.

According to him, Fire rented a list from WND through a third party broker on one occasion (SOP for list rental) and does not have any continuing relationship or plans to rent from them again. He says that they were not aware of any loopy views espoused by WND as they didn't see a need to investigate before they rented the list.
I think that is a reasonable and satisfactory explanation from F.I.R.E.
Even thoughtful editorial about healthcare reform

http://www.thenextright.com/marsha-blac ... care-bills
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Harlowe
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Re: Cutting off the fringe

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Then there is stuff like this that depresses me ....

Some parents are demanding their schools not show Obama's speech or they'll keep their children home! Even though you know....Reagan and Bush did it.
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archiv ... en_speech/
President Obama is set to address the nation’s schoolchildren next week, presumably to propagandize them into his evil agenda of turning the country into Communist Russia (pronounced “roo-shuh”) and offing granny to save money on health care just as they do in his native Kenya. There are even instruction manuals to enlist the support of the teachers unions in brainwashing our youth.
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archiv ... 019770.php
I can appreciate there's a question of whether the Department of Education erred in the wording of one sentence in the supplementary materials. It's reasonable to think officials should have been more cautious.

But that's not what this is about. The administration not only edited the supplementary materials, but has offered to make the text of the address available in advance, just so everyone can see how innocuous it is. It's made no difference. Conservatives don't want school kids to hear a message from their president. Those who claim superiority on American patriotism have decided to throw yet another tantrum over the idea that the president of the United States might encourage young people to do well in schools.

This is what American politics has come to in 2009.
Michelle Cottle had a good item on this, calling conservatives' behavior "disgraceful."
...Obama is the leader of this entire nation. It doesn't matter if you voted for him -- or even if your head threatens to explode every time you think about him. He is the president, and, as such, it's a big deal that he's speaking directly to students about the importance of education. (Not teachers unions, you hysterics.) And, whatever one's party registration, the idea that any child should be kept home from class purely so their parents can make a political statement about an apolitical speech is appalling. Is the idea that we should shelter children from any contact with or knowledge of any president we personally dislike? Maybe, during the years our preferred party is out of power, we should just pretend that the president doesn't exist. That's a healthy way to run a democracy.

Admittedly, Obama is smooth. But he ain't smooth enough to wipe away an entire childhood of conservative teachings with one quickie speech about (all together now!) working hard in school. Buck up, all you deep-red wingers: Make the kids watch Glenn Beck afterward if it eases your anxiety. Have them genuflect before a poster of Rush Limbaugh or Ann Coulter. But don't be so paranoid about what might happen if they're briefly exposed to the sinister charms of a liberal president that you drag them down into your foxhole of craziness.
Even Joe Scarborough asked, "Where are all the GOP leaders speaking out against this kind of hysteria?" They are, alas, nowhere to be found. As John Cole explained, "The entire party has been taken over by crazy people."
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Harlowe
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Re: Cutting off the fringe

Post by Harlowe »

Bill O'Reilly of the "Fair, Balanced and Accurate" news network, really deserves his own thread of crazy, but since he's part of the fringe element, might as put his histrionics here too
"over in Holland it's a diseaster"
referring to it as a cesspool of corruption and crime

Amsterdam fights back with statistics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpU0NxPh ... r_embedded

O'Reilly's response
"The way they do statistics in the Netherlands is different. Plus, it's a much smaller country, a much smaller base to do the stats on."
Putting aside that O'Reilly is an absolute idiot about how statistics work, why is it, that it is so damn patriotic for self-proclaimed Conservatives to hate-on the Netherlands for no rational reason?
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Re: Cutting off the fringe

Post by Lurker »

The NextRight looks interesting. I'll check it out in more detail when I get some time.

Unfortunately people like that are shouting in the face of a hurricane. The GOP has been taken over by crazy at every level, from elected leaders to their radio and tv allies. There's just too few reasonable people left in the party and when they do speak up they are treated like traitors.
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Re: Cutting off the fringe

Post by Partha »

There's a simple problem with the NextRight's premise.
Demographically, Democrats rely on being the party of the upper sixth and the lower third, while Republicans tend to do better with everyone in between.
That problem, of course, is that Republican policies increase the number of poor. Well, that and what he's claiming isn't precisely true:

http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~gelman/re ... blue11.pdf
Well, it’s the Super-Monroe Doctrine: “Get off our oil, people who dress funny!” - M. Bouffant

"You're a bad captain, Zarde. People like you only learn by being touched, and hard. And you will greatly disapprove of where these men put their hands." - M. Vanderbeam.
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Re: Cutting off the fringe

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

Lurker wrote:The NextRight looks interesting. I'll check it out in more detail when I get some time.

Unfortunately people like that are shouting in the face of a hurricane. The GOP has been taken over by crazy at every level, from elected leaders to their radio and tv allies. There's just too few reasonable people left in the party and when they do speak up they are treated like traitors.
Well then... keep fucking shouting! Eventually, the hurricane will pass and voices will be heard! Unsustainable governmental systems always hit the wall of reality (i.e. large scale communism). Those that have a voice will shape the new system. Good, bad or indifferent, that system will be the launching point of yet another system.
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Harlowe
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Re: Cutting off the fringe

Post by Harlowe »

Partha, I'm not saying they are spot on with regard to every thing they utter on that site, why should we even have that kind of expectation of any site in order to deem it valuable or admire it? I'm just saying I find a site from the Right that offers honest, non-crazy discourse about the issues refreshing. I find a site from the Right that speaks out against the craziness, pretty damn awesome. No crazy birther nonsense, no lies about health care or Obama being Hitler. Not only that, but they are going after World Net Daily and it's supporters, which is pretty promising to me. Personally, I like the feeling there are motivated, rational, intelligent Conservatives not giving up and not buying into the ignorance. Conservatives that HATE the Joe Plumberization of their party.

I want to support that kind of opposition and lively, intelligent debates, because any one party with too much power, no matter what their original intentions are, end up arrogant and drunk with it. Intelligent opposition is a good thing.
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Re: Cutting off the fringe

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

Harlowe wrote: I want to support that kind of opposition and lively, intelligent debates, because any one party with too much power, no matter what their original intentions are, end up arrogant and drunk with it. Intelligent opposition is a good thing.
Absolutely agree.
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

Embar
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Re: Cutting off the fringe

Post by Partha »

...which, of course, Embar was saying all along in the first half of the 00's. Or not. :roll:
Well, it’s the Super-Monroe Doctrine: “Get off our oil, people who dress funny!” - M. Bouffant

"You're a bad captain, Zarde. People like you only learn by being touched, and hard. And you will greatly disapprove of where these men put their hands." - M. Vanderbeam.
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Re: Cutting off the fringe

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

Partha wrote:...which, of course, Embar was saying all along in the first half of the 00's. Or not. :roll:
I have the ass of a 25 year-old too, if that helps your man crush on me.
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

Embar
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Re: Cutting off the fringe

Post by Partha »

I'm sorry you're a hypocrite. Maybe someday you'll get a valid and consistent moral code.
Well, it’s the Super-Monroe Doctrine: “Get off our oil, people who dress funny!” - M. Bouffant

"You're a bad captain, Zarde. People like you only learn by being touched, and hard. And you will greatly disapprove of where these men put their hands." - M. Vanderbeam.
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Re: Cutting off the fringe

Post by Ddrak »

Embar Angylwrath wrote:I have the ass of a 25 year-old too, if that helps your man crush on me.
In Formaldehyde? On a shelf somewhere?

Dd
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Re: Cutting off the fringe

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

Ddrak wrote:
Embar Angylwrath wrote:I have the ass of a 25 year-old too, if that helps your man crush on me.
In Formaldehyde? On a shelf somewhere?

Dd
That made me lol!
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

Embar
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