Chavez wannabe legally ousted, media calls it a coup.

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Trollbait

Chavez wannabe legally ousted, media calls it a coup.

Post by Trollbait »

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/ ... index.html
TEGUCIGALPA, Honduras (CNN) -- Hours after the sitting president was deposed by a military-led coup, a new president of Honduras was sworn in Sunday.
Honduras President Jose Manuel Zelaya was detained and sent to Costa Rica, the government said.

But the former president was not ready to give up his powers.

The political developments that swept Honduras over the past weeks and led up to Sunday's coup had the makings of a crisis, but the situation in the Central American nation of 8 million people was calm.

Roberto Micheletti was sworn in as provisional president to the applause of members of Congress, who chanted, "Honduras! Honduras!" Outside the building, supporters of ousted President Jose Manuel Zelaya protested, but their numbers were limited, and the streets remained mostly peaceful. Micheletti told CNN en Español Sunday evening that he has imposed an "indefinite" curfew.

Micheletti, the head of Congress, became president after lawmakers voted by a show of hands to strip Zelaya of his powers, with a resolution stating that Zelaya "provoked confrontations and divisions," within the country. A letter of resignation purported to be from Zelaya was read to members before the vote.

But the deposed president, Zelaya, emphatically denied in an interview with CNN en Español that he wrote the letter. Speaking from Costa Rica, where he was taken after the coup, he said he plans to continue exercising his presidential duties with a trip to Managua, Nicaragua, to attend a summit of Central American heads-of-state.

Zelaya awoke to the sound of gunfire in his residence and was still in his pajamas when the military forced him to leave the country Sunday morning, he told reporters. He was flown to Costa Rica, where he has not requested political asylum.

"This was a brutal kidnapping of me with no justification," Zelaya said.

He called the coup an attack on Honduran democracy.

"There are ways to protest without arms," Zelaya said.

The coup came on the same day that he had vowed to follow through with a nonbinding referendum that the Honduran Supreme Court had ruled illegal.

The coup was widely criticized in the region, in strongest terms by Zelaya's leftist allies, including Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez. A statement from Venezuela's foreign ministry said Zelaya was "violently expelled from his country by a group of unpatriotic, coup-mongering soldiers."

The Bolivian government also condemned the coup, accusing Honduran troops of kidnapping Zelaya and violently expelling him from his country.

Elsewhere, Jose Miguel Insulza, the secretary-general of the Organization of American States, strongly condemned the coup in a statement. And in Washington, President Obama said in a statement that he was "deeply concerned" by the news.

"I call on all political and social actors in Honduras to respect democratic norms, the rule of law and the tenets of the Inter-American Democratic Charter," Obama said. "Any existing tensions and disputes must be resolved peacefully through dialogue free from any outside interference."

The president of the General Assembly of the United Nations, Miguel d'Escoto Brockmann, called the Honduran military's intervention a "criminal action."

But in Honduras, the Supreme Court said in an official statement that the military was acting in accordance with a court order to put an end to Sunday's scheduled vote, which the court's justices had found illegal.

Micheletti addressed the issue directly in his first remarks as provisional president.

"I did not reach this position because of a coup," Micheletti said. "I am here because of an absolutely legal transition process."

No other countries immediately recognized Micheletti as president.

Zelaya, a leftist elected in 2005, had found himself pitted against the other branches of government and military leaders over the issue of Sunday's planned referendum. It would have asked voters to place a measure on November's ballot allowing the formation of a constitutional assembly that could modify the nation's charter to allow the president to run for another term.

In various interviews Sunday, Zelaya characterized the vote not as a referendum, but as a survey to gauge receptiveness toward a constitutional assembly. He denied that he would have been the beneficiary of any future constitutional changes.

Zelaya, whose four-year term ends in January 2010, cannot run for re-election under current law.

The Honduran Supreme Court had ruled the poll illegal, and Congress and the top military brass agreed, but Zelaya had remained steadfast.

In the end, it appeared the opposition to Zelaya was too great. The military confiscated the ballots from the presidential residence, in effect canceling the disputed vote.

In separate appearances Sunday, Zelaya, Venezuela's Chavez and Cuban Foreign Minister Bruno Rodriguez said that the military had also detained Honduran Foreign Minister Patricia Rodas, further raising regional tensions.
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Speaking in Havana, Rodriguez said that the Cuban, Venezuelan and Nicaraguan ambassadors to Honduras had tried but were unable to protect Rodas from a group of masked soldiers who forcibly took her from their grasp. Further details regarding that incident were unclear.

"If they attack our ambassadors, they will be declaring a state of war," Chavez said. "If they have weapons, then we have weapons, too."
Zelaya called for, scheduled, and organized a referendum to call a constitutional assembly. This is illegal for the President to do under the Constitution of Honduras and was ruled as such by the Supreme Court. Only the Congress may call for such a referendum.

Zelaya defied the Supreme Court and the military removed him from office under the direction of the legislature as prescribed by the Constitution.

Now the leftist regimes are sounding off in opposition to Honduras following its own Constitution.
Trollbait

Re: Chavez wannabe legally ousted, media calls it a coup.

Post by Trollbait »

Is she serious?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090629/ap_ ... honduras_4
U.S. diplomats have been working to ensure the safety of deposed Honduran President Manuel Zelaya and his family as they press for restoration of constitutional law and his presidency. Clinton said "it's important that we stand for the rule of law."
Is she retarded? The Honduran government is following the "rule of law" not this tin horn dictator she wants to restore to office. He was ousted for NOT following the "rule of law".
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Re: Chavez wannabe legally ousted, media calls it a coup.

Post by Harlowe »

Maybe this is whack, but I don't think we should be meddling at this point.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/t ... .html#more

http://lagringasblogicito.blogspot.com/
Trollbait

Re: Chavez wannabe legally ousted, media calls it a coup.

Post by Trollbait »

Exactly right.
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Re: Chavez wannabe legally ousted, media calls it a coup.

Post by Lurker »

According to State the situation in Honduras has been brewing for a long time and we were engaged for weeks trying to cool the situation down. At this point, we're just trying to get all the sides talking and working through the OAS so this doesn't become more violent than it already has.

I know the legislature and courts approved the act after the fact, but I don't see how having the military forcibly remove an elected President isn't a coup. Certainly there was some other course of action within the law short of that if they thought the President was acting illegaly.
Trollbait

Re: Chavez wannabe legally ousted, media calls it a coup.

Post by Trollbait »

Well, I think Obama has stepped in it.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id ... _article=1
President Barack Obama says the weekend ouster of Honduran leader Manuel Zelaya was a "not legal" coup and that he remains the country's president.
ORLY?

Legal? So....umm....what if Zelaya did something illegal and unconstitutional?

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNew ... US20090628
Zelaya, who took office in 2006 and is limited by the constitution to a four-year term that ends in early 2010, had angered the army, courts and Congress by pushing for an unofficial public vote on Sunday to gauge support for his plan to hold a November referendum on allowing presidential re-election.
Yeah...well he angered the Court and Congress and the Army......but was he really attempting to undermine his country and the Constitution? Let's see....

http://countrystudies.us/honduras/84.htm
The constitution may be amended by the National Congress after a two-thirds vote of all its members in two consecutive regular annual sessions. However, several constitutional provisions may not be amended. These consist of the amendment process itself, as well as provisions covering the form of government, national territory, and several articles covering the presidency, including term of office and prohibition from reelection.
Lurker wrote:I know the legislature and courts approved the act after the fact
It is my understanding that the military action was at the direction of the legislature and the courts. The military had prior approval.
Lurker wrote:so this doesn't become more violent than it already has
It has been violent? I am not finding any stories of a violent takeover....

You have links to this violence?
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Re: Chavez wannabe legally ousted, media calls it a coup.

Post by Lurker »

What is the constitutionally proscribed remedy when the President of Honduras does something the other institutions find illegal? Military backed expulsion?
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Re: Chavez wannabe legally ousted, media calls it a coup.

Post by Rsak »

He is the elected president until 2010. If he committed a crime then he should be tried for it. For this to not have been a coup it would have meant that the military would have enforced the existing laws and removed him from office the day his term expired, but they moved faster then that and it is a coup.

I agree that we should stay out of it unless they are not going to hold elections as promised.
Trollbait

Re: Chavez wannabe legally ousted, media calls it a coup.

Post by Trollbait »

What is the constitutionally proscribed remedy when the President of Honduras does something the other institutions find illegal? Military backed expulsion?
In short? Yes.

The Supreme Court had ruled his actions illegal. The military in Honduras has the right to arrest a sitting president for crimes. One of the prescribed options is exile.


Here is a portion of the Constitution related to the matter:
El ciudadano que haya desempeñado la titularidad del Poder Ejecutivo no podrá ser Presidente o Vicepresidente de la República. El que quebrante esta disposición o proponga su reforma, así como aquellos que lo apoyen directa o indirectamente, cesarán de inmediato en el desempeño de sus respectivos cargos y quedarán inhabilitados por diez años para el ejercicio de toda función pública.
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Re: Chavez wannabe legally ousted, media calls it a coup.

Post by Torakus »

My spanish is a little rough, but I translate that as roughly:

Any citizen who has served a term of office in the Executive Power, cannot be President or Vice President of the Republic. Anyone who breaks this law, or proposes reforming it, and anyone supporting them, directly or indirectly, will be immediately relieved of their position and disqualified from public service for a period of ten years.

It really doesn't say who will do the removing, but it does say that even proposing to reform the law is illegal and lays out the punishment, though I don't see anywhere that would indicate exile as a punishment.

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Re: Chavez wannabe legally ousted, media calls it a coup.

Post by Ddrak »

I'm pretty sure the military doesn't have the right to arrest people for breaking the law. That function is usually reserved for police forces. I'm not an expert in Honduran law, but I wouldn't imagine their constitution allows the military to perform police actions?

So, it's a coup, but not a particularly dramatic one in that it's the military acting as police and removing a President without waiting on the rule of law to do so.

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Re: Chavez wannabe legally ousted, media calls it a coup.

Post by Harlowe »

We shouldn't be touching this with a ten foot pole. We have no business saying what is legal or illegal for another country in a complicated situation like this if we don't fully and completely understand their constituation. Even then....it's their business, we're meddling.

Posted on Andrew Sullivan's blog
Your post about the Honduras situation was inaccurate. President Zelaya is a proto-Chavez leader who was trying to do something that was illegal in order to gain more power and stay in office indefinitely (again, a la Chavez). As a matter of fact, this is ALSO a kind of coup, albeit a ‘softer’ kind, one that uses the idea of having referenda as a subterfuge to gradually undermine the fundamentals of a democracy (it’s indeed ironic that the Chavez-like figures that are proliferating in Latin America, like Evo Morales or Rafael Correa, try to use a seemingly democratic tool in order to concentrate more power into their own hands, and less power in the courts and in the Congress, thus creating more authoritarian states).

The Constitution of Honduras – see articles 184, 185, and 186 – says that the Supreme Court has the power of declaring something to be unconstitutional, and the President does not have the power to overrule this. The separation of powers in a democracy demands that each power be independent. However, even though both the Supreme Court and the Congress clearly affirmed that Zelaya’s attempt to change the constitution was unconstitutional, Zelaya went forward with his plans nevertheless. The article 272 also says that one of the Army’s main duties is to protect the Constitution; therefore, if the president gives an order that goes against the Constitution (and he does that in clear defiance of the other powers of the Republic), then the Army has a constitutional duty to stop the president. That’s what they seem to have done so far; by allowing the president of the Congress to serve as an interim leader until the next elections (as it is prescribed, again, in the Constitution), then the Army has done its duty to protect democracy.

The comparison Al Giordano did between Iran and Honduras, therefore, is ludicrous and factually incorrect. Countries in Latin America such as Venezuela, Equador, and Bolivia would be in much better shape if the Legislative and Judiciary branches of the government hadn’t gradually lost its power to the Executive. This is true even as those charismatic leaders have used their popularity and charisma to convince the majority of the populace to allow them to do whatever they wanted. Democratic principles cease to be democratic when they are used against the principles of democracy itself, one of which being the balance of powers and alternation of leaders.
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Re: Chavez wannabe legally ousted, media calls it a coup.

Post by Lurker »

From the State Department conference call...
QUESTION: Oh, thanks. I'm with CNN. I just have one quick question, back on the idea of the survey. You said that you felt other institutions felt that it was illegal and unconstitutional, but did you think it was and did you advise the president not to invoke it?

SENIOR ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL ONE: Again, it's not up to us to determine what's legal or not within the context of Honduras. It was important for us to leave this to Honduran institutions to try to resolve. And that was really our focus, the focus of the OAS, and the focus of the other countries who were interested in a peaceful resolution of --

QUESTION: Yeah, but - I'm sorry. You talk about the democratic charter of the OAS and that you want all constitutional means to be adhered to. Did you find that - or you and your partners, I mean not just the United States, but did the international community and the OAS, who's been talking about democratic principles and the need for constitutional - adhering to the constitution, believe that it was in line with the constitution?

SENIOR ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL ONE: Well, again, it's not up to us to determine what's in line with the constitution.

QUESTION: Yeah, but now you're invoking the - I'm sorry, but now you're invoking the constitution to return him. So did you think that what he was doing was in line with the constitution?

SENIOR ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL ONE: No, but there's a big distinction here because, on the one instance, we're conducting about conducting a survey, a nonbinding survey; in the other instance, we're talking about the forcible removal of a president from a country. So I think we can distinguish between those terms - those two in terms of what's constitutional and what might be left to institutions.

But I think what's important to remember about the survey is that it was just that. It wasn't even a formal vote. It was a nonbinding survey. And the issue of whether it was legitimate or illegal did not revolve around the survey itself. It revolved around who conducted it and whether or not this could be conducted by the government and which institution in the government could conduct it, and whether or not as it's being conducted state security forces could be used to both manage and secure the equipment that was being used for the survey and provide security. And that's where the divide occurred within Honduras. It was about who conducted this survey, with several institutions in Honduras insisting that the Honduran Government could not conduct it, at least not in the way that President Zelaya had suggested.

And from our point of view, what was important was not inserting ourselves and trying to make a determination of what was legal or illegal, but trying to insist that the Hondurans find a way to resolve this in a way that was in accord with their constitution.
Personally, I think having the military forcibly remove the President was a huge overreaction, but this is really between the OAS and Honduras at this point. I don't think we'll play a huge role.
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Re: Chavez wannabe legally ousted, media calls it a coup.

Post by Partha »

Waitaminute.

Wasn't this supposed to be a referendum, which, even if illegal, was nonbinding?

And isn't this a leader who, even IF the referendum that means nothing passed, has no control of the legislature, the judiciary, the military, OR (as evidenced) the police force is gonna do exactly WHAT with that?

Huge overreaction by right wing forces in the country.
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Trollbait

Re: Chavez wannabe legally ousted, media calls it a coup.

Post by Trollbait »

Ddrak wrote:I'm pretty sure the military doesn't have the right to arrest people for breaking the law.
That would be incorrect for most Central American countries. The military can and does exercise police powers.


Partha wrote:Huge overreaction by right wing forces in the country.
Do you have proof that it was "right wing forces"?

(Hint: This question is a trap)
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Re: Chavez wannabe legally ousted, media calls it a coup.

Post by Partha »

Why else would they be worried about a 'Chavez wannabe' supported by 'leftist regimes' attempting a nonbinding referendum that has no force of law?

EDIT: I'll also point out that it is a coup by any definition of the word, since the ruling power was ousted by force.
Well, it’s the Super-Monroe Doctrine: “Get off our oil, people who dress funny!” - M. Bouffant

"You're a bad captain, Zarde. People like you only learn by being touched, and hard. And you will greatly disapprove of where these men put their hands." - M. Vanderbeam.
Trollbait

Re: Chavez wannabe legally ousted, media calls it a coup.

Post by Trollbait »

So you did not even bother to back up your claim or hide the fact that you have no idea what you are babbling about.....ok

FYI The new president (The former Speaker in congress as prescribed by the Honduran constitution) is from the same party as the old president.

It was a multi-party constitutional action.

Also, Partha, did you read the part of Torakus' translation (a fairly good one, thanks Tor) that answers your assertion that the referendum was non binding?

Pay special attention to the part that says "or proposes"

I would say that the former President was clearly guilty of proposing the change....as it was found by the Supreme Court.....non binding or not.

Hillary says we must follow the "rule of law"...well ok...he broke it....
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Re: Chavez wannabe legally ousted, media calls it a coup.

Post by Lurker »

Jecks,
You were the first to explain away actions based soley on ideology when you said, "the leftist regimes are sounding off in opposition to Honduras following its own Constitution." The OAS condemned what happened in Honduras. Are all member countries leftist regimes?

You have to admit that what happened is more reminiscent of an old style military coup than how a modern democracy would have handled things. There were much better ways to handle this.
Trollbait

Re: Chavez wannabe legally ousted, media calls it a coup.

Post by Trollbait »

If I am not mistaken the lead official of the OAS is a leftist and Chavista.

And several of the more vocal members are leftists.
There were much better ways to handle this.
According to whom? You? I will be sure to tell the new President that Lurker is available to tell the Honduran people how to run their affairs.
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Re: Chavez wannabe legally ousted, media calls it a coup.

Post by Lurker »

Yeah, Jecks... we're all regional and Honduran constitutional experts now. :roll:

The OAS Permanent Council which is made up of representatives from all 35 member countries, including us, condemned the situation in Honduras. Unlike you, who see this as an opportunity to attack "leftists" and hopefully Obama, the regional players see this as a really outrageous overreaction to a minor political dispute. The region has a history of this sort of military backed bullshit and they are trying to make it an aberration, not a tradition.
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