Pro Incest

[Taxious]

Let me preface this by saying I'm not in love with a family member nor would I choose to have relations with a family member if given the opportunity.

Some friends and I were watching The House of Yes last night, which includes in the story a brother and a sister (twins) who are in love with each other and have had sex for many years. After the movie, we were talking about incest relations and I honestly don't have a problem with it if they are not reproducing.

What's the big deal here? I would personally never choose to screw a family member, but why is it wrong for other people to do this?

[Jarochai Alabaster]

I once knew a guy who was deeply in love with his (First) cousin, and she with him. They had talked about it at length on numerous occasions, and ultimately decided not to pursue a relationship for the slew of complications it would have provided.

There was one point where he and I had been drinking together, and he brought it up. I suppose he felt that, with my being gay, I would be less likely to judge him for it. My honest advice to him was to follow his heart and conscience, but should any relationship arise to ensure that they didn't wind up with kids. He said that was one of their biggest concern, and I believe it became one of the deciding factors in why they chose not to pursue anything.

I don't know. Personally I'm torn on this one, and it's something I've thought about at length a couple times. On the one hand I have a "do what you will as long as it doesn't harm anyone else" mentality, but on the other I just can't get past the feeling that incestual relationships are just plain wrong. Then I wind up thinking that this latter part is a lot of the reasoning behind homophobia, and have difficulty justifying the difference. It's one of those things that becomes a feedback loop in my brain if I think about it too long.

Ultimately I think it's best for people to set aside those feelings, if they're able to. The potential for inbreeding alone is a disturbing enough idea, and no contraceptive is 100%. Then again, how does this apply to gay/lesbian incestual relationships? Should they be exempt from my judgement simply because they can't produce children with 12 fingers and a neanderthal brow? That would then imply to me that gay and straight couples shouldn't be subject to the same rules, which is counter to my ultimate hope of legalized gay marriage.

See what I mean about not knowing how to justify it one way or another? It winds up sending me off into a dozen different tangents, down slippery slopes, and all the while I'm only going in circles.

[Taxious]

I don't know. Personally I'm torn on this one, and it's something I've thought about at length a couple times. On the one hand I have a "do what you will as long as it doesn't harm anyone else" mentality, but on the other I just can't get past the feeling that incestual relationships are just plain wrong. Then I wind up thinking that this latter part is a lot of the reasoning behind homophobia, and have difficulty justifying the difference. It's one of those things that becomes a feedback loop in my brain if I think about it too long.

Ultimately I think it's best for people to set aside those feelings, if they're able to. The potential for inbreeding alone is a disturbing enough idea, and no contraceptive is 100%. Then again, how does this apply to gay/lesbian incestual relationships? Should they be exempt from my judgement simply because they can't produce children with 12 fingers and a neanderthal brow? That would then imply to me that gay and straight couples shouldn't be subject to the same rules, which is counter to my ultimate hope of legalized gay marriage.

See what I mean about not knowing how to justify it one way or another? It winds up sending me off into a dozen different tangents, down slippery slopes, and all the while I'm only going in circles.

I'm not too torn on the issue, but you basically stated my whole argument last night. "It feels wrong" that he's sleeping with his sister? A lot of people say that "it feels wrong" to them that two men are having relations with each other. Still worried about them having children? Consider two brothers that are in love, is that still immoral? (Or a double no-no for some of you )

[Klast Brell]

I would certainly draw a distinction between adult/child incest and adult/adult incest.

The first is just another variety of child abuse and pedophilia. The second is certainly a choice made by consenting adults. I suppose it's surpassingly rare because it requires 2 people to have the same Paraphilia. In the age of the internet it may be easy to find others who share your kink, but when your pool of candidates is limited to just your immediate family...

The risk of birth defects is no greater an obstacle than the risk sustained by any couple who knows they carry a dangerous gene. There are plenty of examples of parents who choose to risk having a greatly disabled child because they want another baby. We don't condemn their love. Only their procreation. If the siblings were incapable of conceiving (vasectomy, same sex relationship etc) that particular argument would not hold water.

I don't see anything wrong with it one an ethical level. It harms no one. I do see something wrong with it on a mental health or socialization level. Engaging in this relationship violates deeply entrenched and widely accepted community standards. Any participant in such a relationship would have to know that they would be reviled by everyone in their community. To carry out the behavior with full knowledge of it's ramifications is an intentional rejection of society. A deliberate choice to be separated from your friends, family and community in general.

There was a middle aged woman in Minneapolis I would see every once in a while. She wore Star Trek clothes as regular street clothes on a daily basis. I would see her walking down Nicolette avenue dressed in Next Gen Yellow. She also chose a life that shut her out from everyone around her. And to choose to do that. To chose that kind of loneliness. To chose your love of something odd over the love and companionship of others smacks of mental illness to me.

But even she could go to SciFi conventions and find some semblance of community. People in adult incestuous relationships don't even have that.

[Taxious]

Klast, it seems to me like you are bringing up a bunch of topics that aren't really connected.

I would certainly draw a distinction between adult/child incest and adult/adult incest.

I would too, but age of consent is a whole separate issue.

There was a middle aged woman in Minneapolis I would see every once in a while. She wore Star Trek clothes as regular street clothes on a daily basis. I would see her walking down Nicolette avenue dressed in Next Gen Yellow. She also chose a life that shut her out from everyone around her. And to choose to do that. To chose that kind of loneliness. To chose your love of something odd over the love and companionship of others smacks of mental illness to me.

This could be taken in so many ways, it's hard for me to figure out what you mean by it. Although it sounds "odd" to other people, I would easily give up my sex drive to be able to play EverQuest all day. People assume that this is because I haven't experienced good sex or love yet (I have) when they really just don't understand it. OMG IT MUST BE MENTAL ILLNESS! I actually see your friend as being more brave than I am, doing what she really enjoys doing - instead of doing what the world tells her she should be enjoying. I wish I had the balls (and money) to do that myself.

[Klast Brell]

OK I probably didn't make myself very clear.

I'm talking about behavior that gets you ostracized. Playing EQ too much may be seen as nerdy, but your Grandma will still invite you for thanksgiving dinner. But being "out" about topping your dad is probably going to get you off grandma's Christmas card list.

That lady was not my friend. I never spoke a word to her in my life. I would see her walking down the street and think "how sad"

I'm not talking about behavior that shocks and offends half the people. I'm talking about behavior that shocks and offends nearly 100% of the people in your community. Old ladies in some African bush tribe may not even own a shirt, but if some 75 year old lady in the Midwest besides she will go topless from now on she will probably not have any friends. Eben playing EQ all day you will have friends on line. All us ranters are a social group of a sort. If we lived in the same town I would go out for a beer with every single one of you.

But there are some life choices that disturb people around you so much you sentence yourself to life in solitary just without the prison cell.

[Partha]

Well, in theory, there would be other people who have committed consensual adult incest who they could talk with.

[Minute]

I would easily give up my sex drive to be able to play EverQuest all day.

Way more odd than the Star Trek lady. Seriously dude, a fat dork who wants to buy a house with a bunch of other people, live off of cream of wheat, never have sex, and live off of EQ? That shit not only sounds unhealthy, but I think you may actually have some severe mental problems & should get some therapy. I think your parents must have been pro-incest.

On a side note, shouldn't this be in the Philosophy & Religion section?

[Select]

Well, you're talking about brother/sister and cousin to cousin who *sound* fairly close in age. What about father and adult daughter? At what age was she when he started becoming attracted to her? Did that affect how he raised her? If it did, can she have healthy relationships with other adults if she found herself attracted to them? Did he raise her to accept and want -even prefer- a relationship with him? Did they start a relationship when she was too young or did they wait?

When it's parent and adult child, aunt/uncle and adult niece/nephew, even older sibling and younger adult sibling, there's too many questions that come up. How far does it go back? I find it hard to believe that the adult waited to feel an attraction and not act on one until the kid became legal, especially if they've been living together as the child grew and matured. It's a very, very close and delicate relationship when one adult was raised or influenced by the other.

And yea, I agree this needs to be in the Philosophy section.

[Taxious]

Way more odd than the Star Trek lady. Seriously dude, a fat dork who wants to buy a house with a bunch of other people, live off of cream of wheat, never have sex, and live off of EQ? That shit not only sounds unhealthy, but I think you may actually have some severe mental problems & should get some therapy. I think your parents must have been pro-incest.

Haha, that'd be some rurl crazy shit if they were. Minute, I'm curious how you feel about incest relationships. Not so much curious as just trying to steer the conversation back on track though.

Dd, if you wanted, could you move this over to the appropriate section?

[Alluveal]

I think cousins are one thing. I think brother/sister/mother/father type sexual relations are crossing the line. I'm ok with sounding judgmental. But, when you open up the door for siblings, it's no different than a father having sex with his son/daughter.

[Select]

I haven't seen the movie, Tax, but wanting to fuck your identical twin is pretty damn narcissistic.

[Harlowe]

The whole thing gives me the heebie-jeebies, not to mention what a total mind fuck that is. Cousins would be one thing, but brother/sister/mother/father couplings? Yea, ick. It would really make your normal family holidays, fucked up.

House of Yes was two actors playing siblings that fucked, it takes out the ook factor knowing in the back of your head they aren't really related.

[Select]

I was talking about the concept of identical twins fucking, not the actual people in the movie. Sorry for wording it badly.

two actors playing siblings that fucked, it takes out the ook factor knowing in the back of your head they aren't really related.

Tax, maybe this is why it made it more okay in your head? Have you met a real life incestuous brother and sister? ...Not that you can just find a pair strolling down the street.

[Minute]

What do I think? I think there are 6 billion people on the planet, so do yourself a favor and find one of those to fuck that isn't your dad. The main problem comes from what Klast mentioned, the majority of incest cases are father/daughter and most often they coincide with the age factor more than the incest factor. A 38 year old man fucking a 14 year old girl is wrong in every sense, if it's his daughter it's just more disgusting. Not only would he be preying on her innocence but on the natural affinity that daughters have with the father figure in their life.

So to throw out the extremely unlikely circumstance of a father and daughter being separated at birth and then miraculously rejoined when both were consenting adults without either of them knowing and then finding out down the road... hopefully they would both be so revolted that they would puke and then run away, but if not then sure. Incest away ya fucking weirdos.

[Alluveal]

I knew a guy (this was 10+ years ago,) who was a friend. He hadn't been home to see his family in a long time. When he returned, he found all these old family photographs of his family (including him and his sister,) posing nude. After some intense therapy, he uncovered that he had been brought up in an incestuous family and had been having sex with his mother by the age of 13 and frequently had sex with his sister. His sister confirmed this happened. He had blocked the details out in his mind.

He's seriously fucked up. Been in and out of mental facilities for years now. He said when he confronted his mother and father they just stated that it had been "how things were done" in the family for many years.

I haven't heard from the guy in a while. He went down the drug path after another failed attempt at therapy and started burning the bridges of everyone he knew (stealing things to sell for money, etc.)

I know that in some tribes, they rarely marry outside the family, but I'm just too creeped out by it.

[wende darling]

Do you ever wonder, with the amount of times men are able to donate sperm and the number of women getting artificially inseminated, how many siblings will be falling in love as a result? And those records are never released! I found out a few years ago that I have a brother just a year or two older than I am. My dad let it slip. When I asked my mom if she knew about it she said, "yeah, don't you remember me telling you as you were growing up not to ever date anyone named Nathan? That's why."

I know, I didn't give any opinion on the matter because I'm right about where Jar sits with it.

[Taxious]

I was talking about the concept of identical twins fucking, not the actual people in the movie. Sorry for wording it badly.

two actors playing siblings that fucked, it takes out the ook factor knowing in the back of your head they aren't really related.

Tax, maybe this is why it made it more okay in your head? Have you met a real life incestuous brother and sister? ...Not that you can just find a pair strolling down the street.

I'm pretty sure Harlowe wasn't even responding to your comment, but I may be wrong. Them being actors has nothing to do with it - I was okay watching it in the movie and would be IRL too if I ever met a couple like that. It would be pretty narcissistic if it was a homosexual relationship between identical twins, if that's what you were trying to point out?

The whole thing gives me the heebie-jeebies

The idea of gay men having sex used to give me the 'heebie-jeebies'. Obviously that's not true anymore, but I'm curious as to what basis you and Alluveal are judging incest couples on. Why is there such a distinction between cousins and siblings?

[Arathena]

Close incest is squicky because of the disruption to the family unit, and the damage that that disruption causes in the ability of a person to interrelate properly to people in general. Because it is generally harmful, there is a very, very large cultural stigma against it. It's a learned behaviour, and generally, a good one.

I believe I also read a study once which stated that we are, in general, hardwired to seek a mate from outside the immediate family. I'm not going to do a search on it from here.

[Alluveal]

I don't know exactly why. And I'm ok with that.

I'm with Minute. find someone else to fuck. Seriously. I'm not caring one way or another if I can't fully defend my creep-out mentality on it. I'm fine and dandy with it.