Kulaf wrote:The 150k number is totally relavent for the reasons I originally cited.
No, it isn't. You originally posted this thread because you thought Obama was moving the goalpost for who got a tax cut. He wasn't and he hasn't.
You are now taking one part of his tax plan -the Making Work Pay component- and making a false leap that nobody making over 150k a year gets tax relief. Obama said that people making over 250k would see their taxes go up, and that (as you underlined and bolded) people making less than $200,000 will receive some type of tax cut. That's exactly what's happening. There's more in the budget and the tax plan than that one component.
Yes it is because unless you can explain to me how a married couple who don't have kids, are not in a mortgage and are not attending college who are making between 151k and 200k are getting a tax credit.......then they moved the goalpost themselves, like I said they did when Biden dropped the new figure.
It's happened just like I said. He couldn't keep his spending and give the credit he said so he lowered it. This is his party in power.....and his "mandate" so if he can't get what he wants from Congress it's because he never asked in the first place.
Kulaf made the excellent point a few years back when we were bitching about mandating a balanced budget that it's not feasible because deficit spending is the best way to get out of a recession/depression.
You have a link, maybe? Because all I've seen Kulaf doing since Obama took office is bitching about Obama following the course that you claim Kulaf said is correct.
The question is where you are deficit spending. I have no issues with a lot of Obama's spending. The health care part has NOTHING to do with stimulating the economy.
Kulaf wrote:
The question is where you are deficit spending. I have no issues with a lot of Obama's spending. The health care part has NOTHING to do with stimulating the economy.
Yeah, injecting cash into one of the largest single sectors of the US economy while it's losing millions of paying customers makes NO economic sense whatsoever.
Kulaf wrote:Yes it is because unless you can explain to me how a married couple who don't have kids, are not in a mortgage and are not attending college who are making between 151k and 200k are getting a tax credit
Extension and indexation of the AMT patch.
And what Arathena said about health care. It needs to be done in a way that reforms the system and lowers costs, but it needs to be done.
Kulaf wrote:
The question is where you are deficit spending. I have no issues with a lot of Obama's spending. The health care part has NOTHING to do with stimulating the economy.
Yeah, injecting cash into one of the largest single sectors of the US economy while it's losing millions of paying customers makes NO economic sense whatsoever.
Well then hell......turn the spigot loose and just send cash to every single sector of the economy while you're at it. Why are we wringing our hands over the auto industry when we are going to start with 350 billion for "medical reform"?
We worry about the auto manufacturers because that's a vital part of the industrial base any technologically advanced civilization needs.
Well, it’s the Super-Monroe Doctrine: “Get off our oil, people who dress funny!” - M. Bouffant
"You're a bad captain, Zarde. People like you only learn by being touched, and hard. And you will greatly disapprove of where these men put their hands." - M. Vanderbeam.
Sorry you failed to grasp the sarcasm.....let me make it more clear. Why are we making auto manufacturers jump through hoops when the helthcare industry who hasn't even asked for help is going to get 350 Billion?
I'm not sure it's worth responding to you since the two situations aren't at all similar, but here goes.
The reasons for making a struggling auto industry jump through hoops before we hand them money is obvious. We're using taxpayer money to help a private company and need some assurance that the company will recover.
The need to reform health care in this country so we can lower cost and cover more people is equally obvious. You can read more about Obama's plan here. Obama is fulfilling a campaign promise to reform the system and he's making sure to include the costs in his budget.
Right.....so the bullshit excuse that it is to stimulate the economy given above is just that......bullshit. I'm pretty much guessing that if you surveyed the healthcare industry they would prefer the government just stay the hell out of their private business.
Kulaf wrote:Right.....so the bullshit excuse that it is to stimulate the economy given above is just that......bullshit.
Arathena was responding to your ignorant view that Government spending on health care had "NOTHING to do with stimulating the economy". That's not the reason for doing it, but it will clearly have some effect in stimulating the economy.
Kulaf wrote:I'm pretty much guessing that if you surveyed the healthcare industry they would prefer the government just stay the hell out of their private business.
And I'm sure the banking industry would prefer the government stay the hell out of their private business too. Tough. Obama was elected to enact the agenda he ran on and that's what he's going to do.
Kulaf wrote:Right.....so the bullshit excuse that it is to stimulate the economy given above is just that......bullshit.
Arathena was responding to your ignorant view that Government spending on health care had "NOTHING to do with stimulating the economy". That's not the reason for doing it, but it will clearly have some effect in stimulating the economy.
Ohh I am sure it will stimulate the economy.....right into the fucking ground.
Lurker wrote:
Kulaf wrote:I'm pretty much guessing that if you surveyed the healthcare industry they would prefer the government just stay the hell out of their private business.
And I'm sure the banking industry would prefer the government stay the hell out of their private business too. Tough. Obama was elected to enact the agenda he ran on and that's what he's going to do.
He also said he was going to phase in segments of his plan as the economy improved.....funny I haven't seen any improvement......nor any spending restraint on his part.
You sound pretty rabid (or maybe just hysterical) in all your responses/remarks, as opposed to having a thoughtful discussion about it. Just saying.
Bottom line is that he's doing what we put him in office to do, if you are not one of the people that put him there, then no doubt he is NOT doing what you want.
"I realize that passing this budget won’t be easy. Because it represents real and dramatic change, it also represents a threat to the status quo in Washington. I know that the insurance industry won’t like the idea that they’ll have to bid competitively to continue offering Medicare coverage, but that’s how we’ll help preserve and protect Medicare and lower health care costs for American families. I know that banks and big student lenders won’t like the idea that we’re ending their huge taxpayer subsidies, but that’s how we’ll save taxpayers nearly $50 billion and make college more affordable. I know that oil and gas companies won’t like us ending nearly $30 billion in tax breaks, but that’s how we’ll help fund a renewable energy economy that will create new jobs and new industries. I know these steps won’t sit well with the special interests and lobbyists who are invested in the old way of doing business, and I know they’re gearing up for a fight as we speak. My message to them is this:
"So am I."
The system we have now might work for the powerful and well-connected interests that have run Washington for far too long, but I don’t. I work for the American people. I didn’t come here to do the same thing we’ve been doing or to take small steps forward, I came to provide the sweeping change that this country demanded when it went to the polls in November. That is the change this budget starts to make, and that is the change I’ll be fighting for in the weeks ahead – change that will grow our economy, expand our middle-class, and keep the American Dream alive for all those men and women who have believed in this journey from the day it began.
He's doing what I voted him there to do, which is to do something radically different than what Bush was doing. He's certainly rocking the boat, and I think he's working harder than a nickel whore on fuck night. He's no slacker that's for sure.
So yeah, Harlowe's right. If you voted for him you're mostly likely pleased with his performance, otherwise you're not, and you're counting the minutes until 2012. Hopefully we'll see a stronger ticket than Awkward McNasty and his comedic sidekick Caribou Barbie. History will judge Obama's performanace either way, and I'm guessing history will look at Obama more favorably than Bush, which is setting a low bar. But the night's still young, and he could still fuck it all up. But for now I'm happy as a clam. We'll see.
Ohh I am sure it will stimulate the economy.....right into the fucking ground.
How so?
Dd
Because his plan is predicated on a 4% growth in GDP by 2011. There is no way this economy is going to be growing in 2 years time. His plan is predicated on increased tax revenues to pay for some 650 Billion dollars over 10 years......which I might add is a total farce of a number. This program is going to cost a hell of a lot more than 65 Billion a year.
Ohh I am sure it will stimulate the economy.....right into the fucking ground.
How so?
Dd
Because his plan is predicated on a 4% growth in GDP by 2011. There is no way this economy is going to be growing in 2 years time. His plan is predicated on increased tax revenues to pay for some 650 Billion dollars over 10 years......which I might add is a total farce of a number. This program is going to cost a hell of a lot more than 65 Billion a year.
This is the health plan, right? I thought the $350b number was basically supposed to save an equivalent amount of money from the economy as a whole from ease of access to records?
Am I missing something here? Did the plan change from the one Jecks was worried about the privacy of, or is there something different on the cards?
WASHINGTON — - President Obama is proposing to begin a vast expansion of the U.S. health-care system by creating a $634 billion reserve fund over the next decade, launching an overhaul that most experts project will ultimately cost at least $1 trillion.
The 350 Billion is just to jump start the recording process. The 65 Billion in the Obama "no plan heath care plan" is to pay for.......something. It's not really clear what because he doesn't actually have a working plan. It's more of a shell that he hopes Congress will beat into a plan.
The 650 Billion in the Obama "no plan heath care plan" is to pay for.......something. It's not really clear what because he doesn't actually have a working plan. It's more of a shell that he hopes Congress will beat into a plan.
Interesting idea though - float a number and then get Congress to fight over what's in and what isn't. Hell, even the GOP has been caught agreeing that "all Americans deserve access to affordable health care", just disagreeing with the idea of raising taxes on the wealthy (which has their code-word "small business").
Obama's forcing the topic of conversation and playing one side off against the other. Damn clever idea politically. I disagree that it will run the recovery into the ground simply because there's no details of exactly what is in and what is out. If it actually saves people money to cut out the health insurance agency's profits then it seems like a good idea to me that could put money somewhere more useful. Still, if it clings to the old idiocy of employer based insurance then I still say that it's not enough change.
Obama has a framework for health care reform. I linked to it earlier.
Just because he's not repeating the mistake Clinton made by drafting a plan on his own and then attempting to force it through Congress doesn't mean he doesn't have a plan. He'll work closely with Congress over the coming weeks and months to get the details ironed out. In the meantime, he's including money in his budget.
Ddrak wrote:Still, if it clings to the old idiocy of employer based insurance then I still say that it's not enough change.
What do you make of this part of his framework?
Obama health plan wrote:Establish a National Health Insurance Exchange with a range of private insurance options as well as a new public plan based on benefits available to members of Congress that will allow individuals and small businesses to buy affordable health coverage.
