Sorry Romney

[Embar Angylwrath]

I've always been facinated with Jesus' statement of "Why hast thou forsaken me?"

It's as if Jesus isn't sure that God is going to go through with the deal.

Its a glimpse into the enormous sacrifice that was made. God took the very real chance that Jesus could have chosen to do otherwise than he did, could have chosen weakness and frailty, succumbed to his fear, and just made the whole thing go away. Jesus, after all, was human as well has godhead. But he didn't, and chose to endure the pain and torture he knew was coming, even though he knew he didn't have to.

[Garrdor]

Constructed by the minds of men.

[Klast Brell]

Unlike mankind God is infallible and does not break a covenant He has made.

Except for the entire old testament right? Your ability to hold two opposing ideas in your head is marvelous.

[Harlowe]

I have a hard time putting a great deal of confidence in taking the Bible verbatim. We don’t even know who wrote quite a few books and we’re relying on the word of various Pope’s as to what is inspired writing and should be included in the book and what shouldn’t.

That’s relying on men, men who are fallible and corruptible.

[Klast Brell]

In one sentence you say jesus is god and in the next you have jesus talking to god just like he would talk to anyone else. I'm sure your ability to hold opposing ideas in your head comes in handy here as well. That schizophrenic thing really makes it hard to understand what you are saying. You keep switching from a monotheistic "unitary executive" to a polytheistic God and Vice God as it suits your arguments.


Much like you are claiming that god/jesus (Can we call it Gosus or Jesod when we are talking about it monotheisticaly?) Does not stand by and watch us suffer and die and go to hell, but at the same time you say that the last time he/they did anything convincing was over 2000 years ago. Think about it. What is/are he/they doing to save his/their children right now? Certainly sending a boat and a helicopter to get us off the roof is not it. Because if it was, that would be god/jesus interfering with the free will of the people in the boat and helicopter. Can't break that covenant after all. So we are left to surfer and die and go to hell while he/they wring/s his/their hand/s and and do/does nothing because it's up to us to chose to save ourselves.

And saving yourself doesn't do squat until after you are dead. Children who love jesus and can be "Saved" yet still get molested by fathers, uncles, priests, coaches, etc. People that "have been saved" still get Alzheimer's and cancer they still get robed, murdered, and maimed. People can live tortured agonizing lives and not a single divine finger is lifted. In the mean time Rapists robbers and murderers need only say "sorry jesus, I love you" and they get a reserved seat in the first class section of the afterlife.

And what about the people in hell? No divine fingers waving in that direction either? What exactly does this deity do anyway? Anything at all?

[Trollbait]

Except for the entire old testament right? Your ability to hold two opposing ideas in your head is marvelous.

I would like to see what Covenant God made that He broke that you are referencing.

In one sentence you say jesus is god and in the next you have jesus talking to god just like he would talk to anyone else. I'm sure your ability to hold opposing ideas in your head comes in handy here as well. That schizophrenic thing really makes it hard to understand what you are saying. You keep switching from a monotheistic "unitary executive" to a polytheistic God and Vice God as it suits your arguments.

Yes. Jesus was a man. He was also God. He was also the Son of God. He was also the Holy Spirit. Here we are getting into the concept of the Trinity and it is a VERY complex issue and a very hard concept for the human mind to grasp.

If you are attempting to use the concept of Jesus talking to God to discredit the events then you need to first understand the concepts you are speaking about. We would have to start an entirely different thread to tackle that issue.

Much like you are claiming that god/jesus (Can we call it Gosus or Jesod when we are talking about it monotheisticaly?) Does not stand by and watch us suffer and die and go to hell,

That is correct. God has already taken action.

but at the same time you say that the last time he/they did anything convincing was over 2000 years ago.

That is incredibly silly. You are attempting to place an eternal being into your set of physical rules. Events unfold at God's time...not at ours.

Think about it. What is/are he/they doing to save his/their children right now?

Again...../sigh..........He already did it. Now it is up to each individual to accept it.

Certainly sending a boat and a helicopter to get us off the roof is not it. Because if it was, that would be god/jesus interfering with the free will of the people in the boat and helicopter

It was just a counter analogy to yours and was not meant literally. Quit being deliberately obtuse. You could not be so stupid as to fail to understand the point.

So we are left to surfer and die and go to hell

Uhhh....no....I explained this to you. You do not have to go to hell if you just accept the truth of the sacrifice and accept that Jesus is your Savior. Simple as that.

while he/they wring/s his/their hand/s

I doubt very seriously that God sits around wringing his hands. After all what would be the point of that?

and do/does nothing

Asked and answered.

because it's up to us to chose to save ourselves.

EXACTLY! Maybe you are finally getting it.

And saving yourself doesn't do squat until after you are dead.

Very true. But I would submit that ETERNITY is a bit longer that the 80 or so odd years that you and I have on this planet so I think you could not really ask for more than that. I would rather have an eternity of salvation than a guarantee that I would never be robbed, raped, or murdered while I spent my physical existence here on earth.

And saving yourself doesn't do squat until after you are dead. Children who love jesus and can be "Saved" yet still get molested by fathers, uncles, priests, coaches, etc. People that "have been saved" still get Alzheimer's and cancer they still get robed, murdered, and maimed. People can live tortured agonizing lives

Yes. Man is sinful. People do terrible things to each other. There is disease and plague and horrible things every day on this planet. We had a chance at a perfect life. Everything was perfect with not a hint of the terrible things you mentioned. We fucked that up. That is why we are in the position to need forgiveness from God.

In many Christian theological circles it is established thought that Satan has dominion over the earth. This dominion was given to Adam by God and was ceded to Satan by Adam when Adam chose to believe the word of Satan over the word of God.

not a single divine finger is lifted

LOL....still with this....See above. God has done what he will do already and it is only a matter of us accepting that. Really, to come to earth, make yourself live in a coporeal form, be subject to all the physical torments and temptations of man, and be tortured and ultimately crucified, that is not enough? I think what God has done on our behalf is kind of a big deal. I am not going to harp on Him for more. You can if you want to.

In the mean time Rapists robbers and murderers need only say "sorry jesus, I love you" and they get a reserved seat in the first class section of the afterlife.

Uhhh...not exactly. You failed to understand it yet again. They have to truly believe that Jesus Christ died for their sins and rose again from the dead. They can't just verbalize it. In fact they don't have to verbalize it at all. They have to take it into their souls and truly believe it. After they accomplish that then yes, their past sins are forgiven and they belong to God.

And what about the people in hell?

Well...now here is another question LONG debated. If they have heard the message and rejected it. If they have rejected Christ as their Savior then they are damned for eternity. Those are God's rules. They had the easiest of choices and failed.

Anything other than that I do not know. Like if you were to ask if a person died and had never heard the message and been given the choice....I do not know the answer to that.

I only hope that you understand what I have said here.

When the word of the kingdom comes to anyone, and the sense of it is not clear to him, then the Evil One comes, and quickly takes away that which was put in his heart. He is the seed dropped by the wayside.~Matthew 13:19

[Finglefinn]

The entire Bible is a metaphor. All the stories and lessons contained within were written to guide human behavior, ie what is "right" and "wrong." Most religious texts are the same. Both of which are up to each individual to understand and interpret the way they feel is correct. It is organized religion that has forced people to believe or behave in a certain way. Organized religion has done the thinking or interpreting for the average believer, often detrimental to the believer. Especially within the scope of television evangelists who sway millions of viewer each year to their sick and twisted belief systems.

There are some organized religions that benefit the believer on the whole. However, the majority of the significant religions on Earth have failed miserably. Religion has been and always will be, to the majority of organized religious factions, a means of control.

[Ddrak]

Except for the entire old testament right?

Nope, but if you follow the old testament path then you would be a Jew and not a Christian.

In one sentence you say jesus is god and in the next you have jesus talking to god just like he would talk to anyone else. I'm sure your ability to hold opposing ideas in your head comes in handy here as well. That schizophrenic thing really makes it hard to understand what you are saying. You keep switching from a monotheistic "unitary executive" to a polytheistic God and Vice God as it suits your arguments.

I don't see how this is bothering you - exactly which argument did you present that the dual nature of the trinity confounded you on? It seems like you're picking irrelevancies out of the air to complain about instead of debating the actual points presented. Strangely enough, this is typically the stance taken by the religious folk against the agnostic and it's quite surreal to see it here in reverse.

There is one god, one will but three parts to that one god. Jesus in particular was both god and man as required to fit the loophole which allowed him to sacrifice himself for everyone else. The only time that split is really relevant is when you're talking about Jesus himself and his sacrifice, not the whole "why does god allow evil" type of question.

Much like you are claiming that god/jesus (Can we call it Gosus or Jesod when we are talking about it monotheisticaly?) Does not stand by and watch us suffer and die and go to hell, but at the same time you say that the last time he/they did anything convincing was over 2000 years ago. Think about it. What is/are he/they doing to save his/their children right now? Certainly sending a boat and a helicopter to get us off the roof is not it. Because if it was, that would be god/jesus interfering with the free will of the people in the boat and helicopter. Can't break that covenant after all. So we are left to surfer and die and go to hell while he/they wring/s his/their hand/s and and do/does nothing because it's up to us to chose to save ourselves.

This is essentially correct in my belief, ignoring the drama queen hype in framing. God has provided the method - it's up to man of his own free will to accept the conditions. Note that it's not "saving ourselves" though - it's admitting that it's impossible to save ourselves and requesting God do it for us (among other things). Again, the whole free will thing comes into play - you're not forced to request to be saved and nor should you be.

And saving yourself doesn't do squat until after you are dead. Children who love jesus and can be "Saved" yet still get molested by fathers, uncles, priests, coaches, etc. People that "have been saved" still get Alzheimer's and cancer they still get robed, murdered, and maimed. People can live tortured agonizing lives and not a single divine finger is lifted. In the mean time Rapists robbers and murderers need only say "sorry jesus, I love you" and they get a reserved seat in the first class section of the afterlife.

Again, essentially correct but hyped with drama queenish style. It's not just a "sorry jesus, I love you" - remember you're talking to an omniscient God here and you *actually* have to be sorry and *actually* turn from your ways to not sin again as best you can. I'm not exactly sure what your point is though - seems like you're suggesting that punishment should be carried out on someone who has truly been rehabilitated? The essence of forgiveness is that if someone is truly sorry for what they've done then you forgive and forget.

The point to remember about the relationship between God and men is free will has to exist. That doesn't prevent someone from asking God to use them as he sees fit, and of their own free will making themselves a channel for God's actions. In the helicopter scenario - it's certainly possible to consider the case the pilot asked to be and was guided by God in making his decisions on where to fly. Of course, that's my belief. It could have been just pure dumb luck or an educated guess too, and not God at all if you choose to believe that way.

Dd

[Trollbait]

Well said, Ddrak and a fantastic grasp of the material.

[Garrdor]

Follow the leader into heaven! Go on lil' Timmy!

[Kulaf]

The marked lack of understanding of Christianity by those opposed to religion in this thread is interesting.

[Garrdor]

I was raised Catholic.

I've been to other churches, too. Laid back fellowships with nice (but mostly dumb or if not, pompous) people. Hardcore pennicostal cult-centers where people are 'speaking in tongues' and rolling around like fucking retards.

I have read a few versions of the bible. I understand that my 'eternal soul' is at stake when I don't accept Jesus's dumbass fictonal suicide as a reason to have an easy security blanket in my life.

I've taken a different path in life -- to explore my own thoughts and feelings and make choices and judgement based upon my experiences, surroundings, and other perceptions. While this may be the path of the 'unfaithful' or 'hellbound'. I'd much rather spend my time caring about what's important in life than worrying about the unknown in death.

Do I need these book-fed morals I've read during sunday-school? No. Absolutely not. We are a product of our surroundings and act according to our influences. It's in our nature to do so. Some of the 'good book's' teachings are pretty common sense - in regards to the tribe-life us humans have evolved to accept. Be a good Samaritan! Right?

I don't blame simple people for making simple choices. Especially when the fear of rejection, death, and eternity are involved. I try very hard in my everyday life to not feel too much pity for them.

I have no envy for their easy security. I understand their love and respect for a character who'd endure pain and death to save them from damnation. What I don't understand is: why people who take this easy way out try SO hard to defend it when people from other mindsets or backgrounds challenge it's integrity. It's idiotic as well as illogical to argue about something that cannot be proven, either way.

All I can do, personally...

Is sit back and laugh at it all.

[Partha]

The marked lack of understanding of Christianity by those opposed to religion in this thread is interesting.

'Christianity' is SUCH a blanket term. 'Christianity' covers everything from Eastern Orthodox to Quaker to LDS to the UCC.

Fuck all if ANYONE knows what true 'Christianity' is. Martin Luther thought he had that shit wrapped up when he tacked his Thesis on the door. Guess how many branches of 'Chrisitianity' think he was wrong?

Which reminds me - what if all of you talking about the one true road to heaven are wrong? Then, you not only have duped yourself, but you've WILLINGLY proselytized against 'the truth'. Think you'll go to heaven for that one?

[Trollbait]

Which reminds me - what if all of you talking about the one true road to heaven are wrong? Then, you not only have duped yourself, but you've WILLINGLY proselytized against 'the truth'. Think you'll go to heaven for that one?

Partha again missed the entire point that was made.

All of the creeds, denominations, and organizational rules are meaningless.

ONLY and ONLY the acceptance that Christ died for your sins and was rose from the dead can get you into Heaven. Everything else is fiddle faddle no matter how many Popes, Prophets, Ministers, or Bishops try and complicate it with legalisms.

Once a persons accepts that truth into their heart it is not going to matter how many times and in what way they take communion if they even take it at all.

There will be Catholics, Methodists, Messianic Jews, Mormons, Lutherans, and members from any denomination you can think of and probably quite a few from no denomination at all in Heaven. Why will they all be there together? Because they truly accepted that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior.

There will be a ton of the aforementioned denomination in Hell as well. Why will they be in Hell? Because they did not truly accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

Do you get it now?

Or are you still stuck on the legalisms?

[Ddrak]

Garrdor,

I'm glad you've found personal peace with your beliefs. No one here is trying to covert you. Your defensiveness is quite uncalled for actually. You should know that Jesus' death is certainly not "fictional" - it's quite well documented. You might be more accurate if you called the resurrection an unproven event, which is probably what you meant.

Christianity is by no means "easy security". I reject any claim of such, in fact I would argue that it's far more easy to not believe in an afterlife, believe in an omniscient God and try to live as he wants you to than it is to just follow the same moralistic code without the belief that there's a God knowing your thoughts and deeds. It's kinda like saying being married is easier than being single... nope!

I ask your very same question back at you - why do you defend yourself so much from people like Jecks and myself who are perfectly happy to accept your beliefs at face value if you'll accept ours in the same spirit? Why do you challenge *our* integrity when we've in no way challenged yours? Why are YOU arguing about something that cannot be proven either way?

Why *do* some agnostics and atheists feel so challenged by someone who simply believes?

'Christianity' is SUCH a blanket term. 'Christianity' covers everything from Eastern Orthodox to Quaker to LDS to the UCC.

Fuck all if ANYONE knows what true 'Christianity' is. Martin Luther thought he had that shit wrapped up when he tacked his Thesis on the door. Guess how many branches of 'Chrisitianity' think he was wrong?

Which reminds me - what if all of you talking about the one true road to heaven are wrong? Then, you not only have duped yourself, but you've WILLINGLY proselytized against 'the truth'. Think you'll go to heaven for that one?

Well, I would define Christianity as religions that conform to the doctrine that I've been describing here. There's a bunch of differences in the way they think they should act and behave but that is actually irrelevant for salvation, just a side issue that really detracts from the whole thing and honestly turns me off organized religion as a whole. I would *not* call Mormon doctrine "Christian" as a general rule, for example.

In terms of Luther himself, I think even the Catholics agree the church was pretty corrupt back then.

Your last paragraph is confusing - first, the Christian belief is you don't go to heaven for doing good, getting things right etc. and you don't go to hell for getting it wrong. I'm sure you're well aware of that so I'm guessing you're just tossing smoke. The real kicker is you're saying we'll go to hell if our path of salvation to actually wrong - well, duh!

If what you're really trying to get at is "Do Mormons go to heaven?" then I'd argue that it's not a simple answer. In my belief, if they've accepted Jesus blah, blah, blah then yes. If they've put their faith in other parts of the Mormon doctrine then no. In the case of Jehovah's Witnesses, I'd imagine quite a few more end up in heaven than they think actually will (nice surprise for them!). I'd imagine a lot of people who think they are Christian will be quite shocked to find their church attendance and public prayer meetings didn't earn then squat though.

[Trollbait]

just a side issue that really detracts from the whole thing and honestly turns me off organized religion as a whole.

QFE

[Harlowe]

This is where I think all organized religions get it wrong. There is no way that only one path is the right one. Whether that be Muslim, Christian, Hindi or Jew.

[Trollbait]

This is where I think all organized religions get it wrong. There is no way that only one path is the right one. Whether that be Muslim, Christian, Hindi or Jew.

/boggle

[Harlowe]

What is so boggling about one God/Different messengers? Most religions have areas of belief in common with others. The Golden Rule is virtually universal and what about tribal people? God dooms them to hell because of their isolation?

According to CIA estimates in 2004 the world religions breakdown like this; Christians 33.03% (of which Roman Catholics 17.33%, Protestants 5.8%, Orthodox 3.42%, Anglicans 1.23%), Muslims 20.12%, Hindus 13.34%, Buddhists 5.89%, Sikhs 0.39%, Jews 0.23%, other religions 12.61%, non-religious 12.03%, atheists 2.36% (2004 est.)

Do you really think every Muslim, Hindi, Buddhist, Sikh, Jew and those of other religions are going to hell? I don't. I believe it's much more relative to how you live your life and your spiritual relationship with the Creator. Because I might believe Jesus died for my sins, I don't believe that puts me above a Muslim or Jew in relationship to who goes to heaven or hell. I don't really believe in hell actually, other than it being an existence outside the presence of the creator.

Anyway, I don't trust everything that was handed down by Popes, not by a long shot. I trust my own faith.

[Trollbait]

/BOGGLE