Flunkie,
That thread was primarily a bitchfest about the traders being turned off. Your claim was there was 23+ pages of people complaining about *tradeskills* (which in no way proves the system is broken anyway, look up the logical fallacy "argumentum ad numerum" sometime). It's about as accurate as if I pointed to the Dec 10 patch thread with all the people saying the fix was a good one is an indication that the system is excellent.
Sony shut off selling to merchants for ONE DAY because it was far too profitable being certain classes making stuff to sell to vendors. That in no way reflects on the core system itself but simly an indication that vendor pricing was out of whack. When you separate pricing on vendors from the tradeskill system as a whole let me know and we can have an intelligent discussion about it.
As for the "huge decrease", it was markedly absent on my server.
Fal,
You're complaing that what you tested in beta was different to what eventually went live. That's just silliness. Beta is gone and should not be looked on as anything to do with "what was intended" or "how it's meant to be". Start living in the present already and take what exists as the system and discuss that without mentioning some discarded system you enjoy referring back to.
Let me clue you in though - they *are* buffs that you are using now, no matter what you saw in beta. They have precise effects and the selection of which ones you spam (ala EQ1 bards) makes significant differences. "Vision" is a meaningless word - I deal with reality not some dev's fantasy.
I don't care what happened 3 days before release. All that matters is what happens after release. Beta is irrelavent. Also, what you really mean by "no testing" was that *you* never got to test it. There is a difference there, you know?
I know you hate the interdependancies but I think they are a key part of a healthy system. In fact, I consider the Provisioner class the most broken because of the lack of dependancies it exhibits. I think the massive amounts of whining I hear about people having to wait for someone to level blah class to X so they can progress is healthy and those whiners should figure out they are playing a social game and quit their antisocial tendancies.
The tradeskill society system being retuned is also nothing to do with the core tradeskilling model. I know you don't wanna depend on anyone for your stuff but something that requires a dev (well, probably a designer and not a dev) to change a few numbers isn't a core problem in a tradeskilling implementation, nor is it a sign that the devs are all retards.
Overall your complaints basically fit into "it's not the same as beta" and "I can't do it by myself" - neither of which are at all valid criticism in my opinion. Overall the tradeskill system, as implemented in release, is quite sound and reasonably well thought out. Sure, people complain but that's usually from their *own* perception about what *should* be differing from what actually is there, rather than actual criticisms of the core model itself.
As for the 2g poofing in front of your eyes, I'm sure it's not that infurating when you have 20p in the bank. If tradeskilling infuriates you so much, why on earth are you a 33 weaponsmith anyway?
Akhbar,
EQ2 is a better game design than EQ1. WoW is also, as is almost any game released after EQ. It's an iterative process. No one is trying to convince themselves of anything there, except perhaps the bizarre crowd that seems to think EQ2/WoW are dumbed down versions of EQ1 - something that a week or so in either game would dispel.
If anything, what I see the most of is a group of people that are enjoying EQ2 and WoW more than they did EQ1 and conveying that fact with a group of people still playing EQ1 trying to somehow justify their decision to stay when there's really no need to.
Perhaps you could point out the desperate "EQ2 is so much better than EQ1" posts though? I really don't see it that much, but perhaps that's just because I happen to feel that EQ2 (and WoW for that matter) is a better game than EQ1, at least from my perspective.
Dd
EQ II - Month 1 Impressions + "Macro'd to death" B
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Ddrak
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Falundir X`Viento
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Ddrak you are mistaken, Beghn made a very large post stating what the system you are working with now, was intended to do, which I stated in my post. The system you are working on now is not finished by the guidelines the dev himself posted. With you not being in beta, not having discussions with Beghn via forums/chat it is difficult for you to 'see' the actual mechanics behind the system and the problems in them.Ddrak wrote: Fal,
You're complaing that what you tested in beta was different to what eventually went live. That's just silliness. Beta is gone and should not be looked on as anything to do with "what was intended" or "how it's meant to be". Start living in the present already and take what exists as the system and discuss that without mentioning some discarded system you enjoy referring back to.
The system you are using will change, it will evolve into what Beghn has intended.
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I don't necessarily think EQ2 is "better" than EQ1 so much as I am enjoying the change. There are a list of things I dislike about EQ2. I don't like the fact that you can't heal someone who is not in your group that is engaged in a battle. I imagine they're trying to do away with power-leveling, but honestly? one reason Sony makes so much money is that people buy more than one account and power level alts, twink them up, etc. Seems like they're throwing the baby out with the bathwater on that one.
I also don't like the group debt issue. I was in a group last week and we all died. Sure, a lot of debt, it happens. What sucked after is that you have 2 or 3 people in the group who ran in after their bodies and continued to die repeatedly afterwards, then whined and bitched because they were getting MORE experience debt. Well no s* Sherlock. Stay with the group and we'll fight our way down again. Two people then threatened to leave the group and just leave their shards and log out. I took me 10 minutes on a soap box, saying "please don't do that to us, we all have debt now too and you will only screw us over if you leave. Let's go get our shards!"
On the tradeskill books, I had heard that you could memorize vol 20 and 30 and had talked to one person who claims they had done this. This was, however, a few weeks ago. Perhaps they have changed the books and will simply remove the recipes from your personal crafting book when the time comes? Or, it simply could have been a rumor. I just know the moment I found out, I ooc'ed for a crafter and had one buy the volume 10 for me. Sure enough, I could scribe it.
As for lag, I get it a lot, but I also do not have the recommended specs for the game. I hope to change that here over the next month or two. I have everything turned down pretty low, so lag never interferes unless I'm in Blackburrow. For some reason, that zone is a freakin' lag-fest.
On the EQ1 issue. I really haven't played that much. My thoughts are, if I want to experience grind, I can do it in a new game with a new character that needs levels. EQ2 is also something of a lonely game for me. I've done more solo'ing than grouping and perhaps that will change over time.
Finally, the biggest appeal for me in regard to EQ2 is that everything is new to EVERYONE. I don't know anyone who has "conquered" the end game. Whenever a new expansion is released for EQ1, it's literally a matter of weeks before the top end guilds eat through the new content and, poof, that's it.
I also don't like the group debt issue. I was in a group last week and we all died. Sure, a lot of debt, it happens. What sucked after is that you have 2 or 3 people in the group who ran in after their bodies and continued to die repeatedly afterwards, then whined and bitched because they were getting MORE experience debt. Well no s* Sherlock. Stay with the group and we'll fight our way down again. Two people then threatened to leave the group and just leave their shards and log out. I took me 10 minutes on a soap box, saying "please don't do that to us, we all have debt now too and you will only screw us over if you leave. Let's go get our shards!"
On the tradeskill books, I had heard that you could memorize vol 20 and 30 and had talked to one person who claims they had done this. This was, however, a few weeks ago. Perhaps they have changed the books and will simply remove the recipes from your personal crafting book when the time comes? Or, it simply could have been a rumor. I just know the moment I found out, I ooc'ed for a crafter and had one buy the volume 10 for me. Sure enough, I could scribe it.
As for lag, I get it a lot, but I also do not have the recommended specs for the game. I hope to change that here over the next month or two. I have everything turned down pretty low, so lag never interferes unless I'm in Blackburrow. For some reason, that zone is a freakin' lag-fest.
On the EQ1 issue. I really haven't played that much. My thoughts are, if I want to experience grind, I can do it in a new game with a new character that needs levels. EQ2 is also something of a lonely game for me. I've done more solo'ing than grouping and perhaps that will change over time.
Finally, the biggest appeal for me in regard to EQ2 is that everything is new to EVERYONE. I don't know anyone who has "conquered" the end game. Whenever a new expansion is released for EQ1, it's literally a matter of weeks before the top end guilds eat through the new content and, poof, that's it.
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Ddrak
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Akhbar,
Anarchy Online and DAoC both had better game design than EQ did (especially if you look at the state of EQ at the time). Whether they were "better games" is far more subjective and better design certainly doesn't mean more successful. After all, Betamax was unquestionably better design than VHS; the Mac had far superior design to the PC; Doom 3 has a superior rendering engine to Half Life 2; etc. Yes - all the games you listed almost certainly had better *design* than EQ. Either you're trolling there or you're just chanting "rhubarb, rhubarb, rhubarb" so loudly to yourself that you refuse to even look.
Fal,
You should try working in software development sometime. It may open your eyes to a few things called "commercial reality". Just because Beghn stated something doesn't mean that's the way it's going to go. Perhaps you missed the whole "Vision" thing in EQ1 which stated a whole bunch of things like boats being an integral part of the experience, hell levels being important, class balance working as intended and a bunch of other crap that the devs told the players all the time?
Here's the fact of life - as big a shot as you may think you are for talking to the very few designers (who aren't real devs anyway for the most part) it's commercial reality that counts. If the tradeskill system has manpower allocated to it then it may change. If it doesn't then it won't. What some dev who is temporarily the lead for that area tells some random beta testing wannabe really means nothing in the long term.
As for "seeing the actual mechanics behind the system" - where do you come up with that BS? The mechanics for the *system*, as implemented, are trivially deduced from about 15 minutes experimentation. Doesn't matter what you were told - this is the way it is and like I said before it's far better to live in reality than in fantasy.
Frankly it doesn't bother me whether it changes or not - I'm just talking about code as implemented and right now it's really not that much of a mess. Some people have screwy ideas about how things should be that may or may not have been planted by some designer's wishful thinking but the fact remains that the system isn't broken at a design level. Some minor tweaking is certainly gonna happen as things that simply aren't possible to test in a beta economy arise but overall it works pretty well.
Allu,
I just want to check - you do know you can recover your shard from the doors of most dungeons with a right-click?
Talking with people today, it seems you can memorize 20 if you do things in a special order. It's really nothing I've bothered with that much though. 10 definitely works though.
I love the fact everything is new to everyone as well. That's a really nice bonus for both EQ2 and WoW. :)
Dd
Anarchy Online and DAoC both had better game design than EQ did (especially if you look at the state of EQ at the time). Whether they were "better games" is far more subjective and better design certainly doesn't mean more successful. After all, Betamax was unquestionably better design than VHS; the Mac had far superior design to the PC; Doom 3 has a superior rendering engine to Half Life 2; etc. Yes - all the games you listed almost certainly had better *design* than EQ. Either you're trolling there or you're just chanting "rhubarb, rhubarb, rhubarb" so loudly to yourself that you refuse to even look.
Fal,
You should try working in software development sometime. It may open your eyes to a few things called "commercial reality". Just because Beghn stated something doesn't mean that's the way it's going to go. Perhaps you missed the whole "Vision" thing in EQ1 which stated a whole bunch of things like boats being an integral part of the experience, hell levels being important, class balance working as intended and a bunch of other crap that the devs told the players all the time?
Here's the fact of life - as big a shot as you may think you are for talking to the very few designers (who aren't real devs anyway for the most part) it's commercial reality that counts. If the tradeskill system has manpower allocated to it then it may change. If it doesn't then it won't. What some dev who is temporarily the lead for that area tells some random beta testing wannabe really means nothing in the long term.
As for "seeing the actual mechanics behind the system" - where do you come up with that BS? The mechanics for the *system*, as implemented, are trivially deduced from about 15 minutes experimentation. Doesn't matter what you were told - this is the way it is and like I said before it's far better to live in reality than in fantasy.
Frankly it doesn't bother me whether it changes or not - I'm just talking about code as implemented and right now it's really not that much of a mess. Some people have screwy ideas about how things should be that may or may not have been planted by some designer's wishful thinking but the fact remains that the system isn't broken at a design level. Some minor tweaking is certainly gonna happen as things that simply aren't possible to test in a beta economy arise but overall it works pretty well.
Allu,
I just want to check - you do know you can recover your shard from the doors of most dungeons with a right-click?
Talking with people today, it seems you can memorize 20 if you do things in a special order. It's really nothing I've bothered with that much though. 10 definitely works though.
I love the fact everything is new to everyone as well. That's a really nice bonus for both EQ2 and WoW. :)
Dd
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rodric
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That they should prolly fix, 10 makes no real difference, but memming 20 means you could be cranking out Tier 3 gear solo in about 30 hours of gameplay.Talking with people today, it seems you can memorize 20 if you do things in a special order. It's really nothing I've bothered with that much though. 10 definitely works though.
Rhodric[/quote]
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rodric
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-=Xilanthanax=-
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Yep, because they know people bail out after dying due to the exp debt.
People are bitches. =x
BTW, Fallen Gate is the only indoor zone I've been able to right click recover in so far. It might only work in places where you've gotta do a quest to gain access.
People are bitches. =x
BTW, Fallen Gate is the only indoor zone I've been able to right click recover in so far. It might only work in places where you've gotta do a quest to gain access.
Make love? Fuck that, I'll make a slut cry. Fuck that, I'll make a slut cum nine times.
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Still playin eq, and waitin for Hellgate: London.
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Still playin eq, and waitin for Hellgate: London.
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Kulaf
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Dd,
"You're complaing that what you tested in beta was different to what eventually went live. That's just silliness. Beta is gone and should not be looked on as anything to do with "what was intended" or "how it's meant to be". Start living in the present already and take what exists as the system and discuss that without mentioning some discarded system you enjoy referring back to."
It's not silliness. I was playing the day the system changed. Every serious TS person from Niami down the line was totally shocked that this new system was going to go live in days with literally no testing. This in software developement terms is called.......ASSININE.
"Let me clue you in though - they *are* buffs that you are using now, no matter what you saw in beta. They have precise effects and the selection of which ones you spam (ala EQ1 bards) makes significant differences. "Vision" is a meaningless word - I deal with reality not some dev's fantasy."
Percise effect? You are joking with that right? You are a Provisioner correct? What exactly do those percise effects do for you?
"I don't care what happened 3 days before release. All that matters is what happens after release. Beta is irrelavent. Also, what you really mean by "no testing" was that *you* never got to test it. There is a difference there, you know? "
No one got to test it. If you don't believe me or Fal ask Niami over at EQ2Traders. Perhaps you will believe her.
"I know you hate the interdependancies but I think they are a key part of a healthy system. In fact, I consider the Provisioner class the most broken because of the lack of dependancies it exhibits. I think the massive amounts of whining I hear about people having to wait for someone to level blah class to X so they can progress is healthy and those whiners should figure out they are playing a social game and quit their antisocial tendancies. "
Ballanced interdependancies are yes. And if people were motivated to help others it would be a great system. However we are talking about the human animal here and people tend to gravitate to the easiest path that makes them the most money. That is usually dealing in final product, not intermediate combines. Right now as a Provisioner you might be seeing things through some rose colored glasses as you depend on no one. Trying going for 5 days trying to get a Jewler to make you some Carbonite Struts so you can advance and make some product.......or have other classes come to you for intermediate products. When you play in the same sandbox as me then you have then we can talk about interdependancy.
"The tradeskill society system being retuned is also nothing to do with the core tradeskilling model. I know you don't wanna depend on anyone for your stuff but something that requires a dev (well, probably a designer and not a dev) to change a few numbers isn't a core problem in a tradeskilling implementation, nor is it a sign that the devs are all retards."
Of course it does. If the balance of NPC buyback is correct, then making items for the TS society becomes vital and integral to TS advancement. Also TS advancement is a price leveling field for intermedite products. I am betting that when a society hit level 10 that the price on Stroma liquids took an imediate hit. The fact that it is taking this long to level an advanced TS society shows me that zero thought went into it. The only reason the lower level societies are advancing so rapidly is the "hand it back to me" bug for gathering quests. If it wasn't for that they would probably be at level 3 max. The simple fact is not a lot of attention was paid to TS at all until this recent NPC buyback fix blew up in SOE's face. Now I bet there is a LOT more focus on TS.
"Overall your complaints basically fit into "it's not the same as beta" and "I can't do it by myself" - neither of which are at all valid criticism in my opinion. Overall the tradeskill system, as implemented in release, is quite sound and reasonably well thought out. Sure, people complain but that's usually from their *own* perception about what *should* be differing from what actually is there, rather than actual criticisms of the core model itself. "
Quite sound? Ok the fact that all of my Advance books as a Craftsman were bugged and not scribeable is sound? The fact that my Tier 3 rare wood is bugged as Ash is sound? The fact that I can make a Tier 3 Ash Greatstaff using all tier 2 ingrediants is sound? The fact that armorers need to stop Carbonite Plates at Shaped so they can make Pristine armor is sound? The fact that people could scribe books from other classses all the way to level 30 is sound? Do I need to continue? Hell if this TS system for Artisans is sound then the combat system in this game is god damn perfect.
Frankly I don't know if you have some beef with Fal Dd.....but your post came off as more of an attack against him than as a serious rebuke of what he actually said. If you think TS's in EQ2 is all roses I don't know what to tell you.
"You're complaing that what you tested in beta was different to what eventually went live. That's just silliness. Beta is gone and should not be looked on as anything to do with "what was intended" or "how it's meant to be". Start living in the present already and take what exists as the system and discuss that without mentioning some discarded system you enjoy referring back to."
It's not silliness. I was playing the day the system changed. Every serious TS person from Niami down the line was totally shocked that this new system was going to go live in days with literally no testing. This in software developement terms is called.......ASSININE.
"Let me clue you in though - they *are* buffs that you are using now, no matter what you saw in beta. They have precise effects and the selection of which ones you spam (ala EQ1 bards) makes significant differences. "Vision" is a meaningless word - I deal with reality not some dev's fantasy."
Percise effect? You are joking with that right? You are a Provisioner correct? What exactly do those percise effects do for you?
"I don't care what happened 3 days before release. All that matters is what happens after release. Beta is irrelavent. Also, what you really mean by "no testing" was that *you* never got to test it. There is a difference there, you know? "
No one got to test it. If you don't believe me or Fal ask Niami over at EQ2Traders. Perhaps you will believe her.
"I know you hate the interdependancies but I think they are a key part of a healthy system. In fact, I consider the Provisioner class the most broken because of the lack of dependancies it exhibits. I think the massive amounts of whining I hear about people having to wait for someone to level blah class to X so they can progress is healthy and those whiners should figure out they are playing a social game and quit their antisocial tendancies. "
Ballanced interdependancies are yes. And if people were motivated to help others it would be a great system. However we are talking about the human animal here and people tend to gravitate to the easiest path that makes them the most money. That is usually dealing in final product, not intermediate combines. Right now as a Provisioner you might be seeing things through some rose colored glasses as you depend on no one. Trying going for 5 days trying to get a Jewler to make you some Carbonite Struts so you can advance and make some product.......or have other classes come to you for intermediate products. When you play in the same sandbox as me then you have then we can talk about interdependancy.
"The tradeskill society system being retuned is also nothing to do with the core tradeskilling model. I know you don't wanna depend on anyone for your stuff but something that requires a dev (well, probably a designer and not a dev) to change a few numbers isn't a core problem in a tradeskilling implementation, nor is it a sign that the devs are all retards."
Of course it does. If the balance of NPC buyback is correct, then making items for the TS society becomes vital and integral to TS advancement. Also TS advancement is a price leveling field for intermedite products. I am betting that when a society hit level 10 that the price on Stroma liquids took an imediate hit. The fact that it is taking this long to level an advanced TS society shows me that zero thought went into it. The only reason the lower level societies are advancing so rapidly is the "hand it back to me" bug for gathering quests. If it wasn't for that they would probably be at level 3 max. The simple fact is not a lot of attention was paid to TS at all until this recent NPC buyback fix blew up in SOE's face. Now I bet there is a LOT more focus on TS.
"Overall your complaints basically fit into "it's not the same as beta" and "I can't do it by myself" - neither of which are at all valid criticism in my opinion. Overall the tradeskill system, as implemented in release, is quite sound and reasonably well thought out. Sure, people complain but that's usually from their *own* perception about what *should* be differing from what actually is there, rather than actual criticisms of the core model itself. "
Quite sound? Ok the fact that all of my Advance books as a Craftsman were bugged and not scribeable is sound? The fact that my Tier 3 rare wood is bugged as Ash is sound? The fact that I can make a Tier 3 Ash Greatstaff using all tier 2 ingrediants is sound? The fact that armorers need to stop Carbonite Plates at Shaped so they can make Pristine armor is sound? The fact that people could scribe books from other classses all the way to level 30 is sound? Do I need to continue? Hell if this TS system for Artisans is sound then the combat system in this game is god damn perfect.
Frankly I don't know if you have some beef with Fal Dd.....but your post came off as more of an attack against him than as a serious rebuke of what he actually said. If you think TS's in EQ2 is all roses I don't know what to tell you.
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rodric
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Dd's post didn't look personal attack at all.
What I hear from every beta tester on this thread is an aggravation with SONY for not doing what they expected or thought should be done prior to release. It's understandable. I would probably feel the same way if I were in Beta, and experience what you're describing.
However, I and many other people are willing to give SONY a chance to make a system work. I don't think it's a big deal that you can't scribe advanced craftsman book and that shaped plates make pristine armor on tier 3. It doesn't affect gameplay. For the most part, the buffs work fine. There are some difference between different disciplines, but even that doesn't necessarily seem wrong to me. The only serious bug in my opinion is the scribing of other classes books at 20 and 30, and since I couldn't even see how to do that at 20, it will probably be restricted to a small number of exploiters.
As far as interdependence, it's an ambitious idea that will take time to develop through in-game testing. It's very closely linked to the economy, and just like in real life, the economy is hard to predict. If you really hate it, then level up some alts, it's effectively the same thing as having your character make lots of stuff, but it takes more time and effort, so it doesn't unbalance the basic concept of interdependence.
Why did SONY scrap the old system at the last minute? I have to assume that they concluded that they couldn't make it work. After all, that's what testing is for. I'm glad they didn't delay the games release for another 2 months of beta testing the new trade system, because I think it's very playable as it stands.
Rhodric
What I hear from every beta tester on this thread is an aggravation with SONY for not doing what they expected or thought should be done prior to release. It's understandable. I would probably feel the same way if I were in Beta, and experience what you're describing.
However, I and many other people are willing to give SONY a chance to make a system work. I don't think it's a big deal that you can't scribe advanced craftsman book and that shaped plates make pristine armor on tier 3. It doesn't affect gameplay. For the most part, the buffs work fine. There are some difference between different disciplines, but even that doesn't necessarily seem wrong to me. The only serious bug in my opinion is the scribing of other classes books at 20 and 30, and since I couldn't even see how to do that at 20, it will probably be restricted to a small number of exploiters.
As far as interdependence, it's an ambitious idea that will take time to develop through in-game testing. It's very closely linked to the economy, and just like in real life, the economy is hard to predict. If you really hate it, then level up some alts, it's effectively the same thing as having your character make lots of stuff, but it takes more time and effort, so it doesn't unbalance the basic concept of interdependence.
Why did SONY scrap the old system at the last minute? I have to assume that they concluded that they couldn't make it work. After all, that's what testing is for. I'm glad they didn't delay the games release for another 2 months of beta testing the new trade system, because I think it's very playable as it stands.
Rhodric
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Bahd Zoolander
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Ddrak
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Kula,
First, it wasn't a personal attack against Fal. I just happen to think his opinion is wrong and colored by the fact his opinion of tradeskills is fairly obviously colored by his experience in beta - something that in my opinion has zero relavence to the released game. It was most definitely an attack on Fal's opinions though and if Niami agrees with Fal then I think she's wrong too.
Let me just restate what Bahd said - just because the new system was released to the open beta testers three days before release doesn't mean it had "literally no testing". Sony, like every dev company, employs a large number of internal testers that are a hell of a lot better at their job than the general public is for the simple reason that they get to see the design specs first hand and are literally employed to test against that design without preconceived ideas on how things "should work". As a software dev with going on 15 years professional experience, I can assure you that it's nothing like "assinine" at all.
So, when you say "no one got to test it" you are flat out wrong. Niami is also wrong. They all mean that "no one outside the professional testing team employed by Sony got to test it". That's why I see the whole thing as a big self-pity exercise. It was tested - if it wasn't it would be crashing the game. The real story is people are just feeling sorry for themselves that the testing they did was thrown out because someone decided the tradeskill system needed reworking. Guess what? That's the point of testing. If I got sad every time something I tested in my professional career got tossed then I'd really be miserable. Hell, only half the code I write sees the light of day too. If you can't cope with that sort of thing then software dev/test isn't a good choice.
I can tell you the precise effect of each buff if you want me to, but you could also look on EQTC where most of them are listed. Here's a link for you with a good amount of information.
When I hit 20 I spent some time casting each buff over and over to work out the precise +/- durability and progress for each one to determine the best twist for the situations I may encounter. My regular round is +8/+90. That's what they do for me.
You will also notice I stated quite a few times that I think the Provisioner class is broken. It needs more interdependancies. It needs negative effects from missing the proper reactions. I have a lot more fun making maple boxes where I have to actually alter my twist to respond to the effects that come up than I do mindlessly punching 1,3,4,5,6 over and over (or 1,2,3,6 if I need to boost durability).
Maybe it's different over on your server, but I see a very healthy balance existing on Blackburrow. People jump into channels asking for alchemists to make stuff and alchemists respond. The higher level tradeskillers realize that by working together they maximise their efforts and so form a cohesive group to help each other out. If your server doesn't have that then it sounds like you need to initiate it. I enjoy that teamwork leads to the best xp gains for everyone and that lack of teamwork results in stagnation. That in my opinion reflects good game design.
I flatly dispute that TS society levels are a core problem with anything other than tradeskillers who want to be antisocial and make things without depending on others. That's the only real benefit that levelling a society gives you. Like I stated - an imbalance in the economy doesn't mean the devs are retards. A tradeskill implementation that crashed when you hit buttons, or was as trivial as queueing products with zero skill involved would mean the devs are retards. A system that needs a few numbers in a database adjusted to smooth the economy just means that it needs tuning.
The tradeskill system is sound Kula. If it wasn't there wouldn't be stacks of people in the tradeskill instances doing them - even after the merchant prices were readjusted. You can go around listing individual bugs for as long as you like, but it's all bullshit. Individual bugs do not make a failed system. A bad design makes a failed system. I don't give a crap that my advanced books weren't scribable because the bug was that they were in the game at all (no recipes exist). One rare wood being bugged doesn't make a *system* unsound - it means that there's a single bug. A smattering of combines having issues doesn't make a *system* unsound - it means someone needs to fix those particular combines.
So, Kula, if you want to convince me the system is unsound then come up with systemic faults and not isolated bugs. Tell me why the *system* is faulty. Don't whine about a single combine that gives you issues. As with most non-professional test people, you seem to singularly lack the ability to see the difference between systemic and isolated issues. Do I deny that there are isolated issues? No, but there's no systemic issues and regardless of people's opinion of the scrapped beta system, the current system works and is good - with the possible exception of Provisioners (as I've said before).
Dd
First, it wasn't a personal attack against Fal. I just happen to think his opinion is wrong and colored by the fact his opinion of tradeskills is fairly obviously colored by his experience in beta - something that in my opinion has zero relavence to the released game. It was most definitely an attack on Fal's opinions though and if Niami agrees with Fal then I think she's wrong too.
Let me just restate what Bahd said - just because the new system was released to the open beta testers three days before release doesn't mean it had "literally no testing". Sony, like every dev company, employs a large number of internal testers that are a hell of a lot better at their job than the general public is for the simple reason that they get to see the design specs first hand and are literally employed to test against that design without preconceived ideas on how things "should work". As a software dev with going on 15 years professional experience, I can assure you that it's nothing like "assinine" at all.
So, when you say "no one got to test it" you are flat out wrong. Niami is also wrong. They all mean that "no one outside the professional testing team employed by Sony got to test it". That's why I see the whole thing as a big self-pity exercise. It was tested - if it wasn't it would be crashing the game. The real story is people are just feeling sorry for themselves that the testing they did was thrown out because someone decided the tradeskill system needed reworking. Guess what? That's the point of testing. If I got sad every time something I tested in my professional career got tossed then I'd really be miserable. Hell, only half the code I write sees the light of day too. If you can't cope with that sort of thing then software dev/test isn't a good choice.
I can tell you the precise effect of each buff if you want me to, but you could also look on EQTC where most of them are listed. Here's a link for you with a good amount of information.
When I hit 20 I spent some time casting each buff over and over to work out the precise +/- durability and progress for each one to determine the best twist for the situations I may encounter. My regular round is +8/+90. That's what they do for me.
You will also notice I stated quite a few times that I think the Provisioner class is broken. It needs more interdependancies. It needs negative effects from missing the proper reactions. I have a lot more fun making maple boxes where I have to actually alter my twist to respond to the effects that come up than I do mindlessly punching 1,3,4,5,6 over and over (or 1,2,3,6 if I need to boost durability).
Maybe it's different over on your server, but I see a very healthy balance existing on Blackburrow. People jump into channels asking for alchemists to make stuff and alchemists respond. The higher level tradeskillers realize that by working together they maximise their efforts and so form a cohesive group to help each other out. If your server doesn't have that then it sounds like you need to initiate it. I enjoy that teamwork leads to the best xp gains for everyone and that lack of teamwork results in stagnation. That in my opinion reflects good game design.
I flatly dispute that TS society levels are a core problem with anything other than tradeskillers who want to be antisocial and make things without depending on others. That's the only real benefit that levelling a society gives you. Like I stated - an imbalance in the economy doesn't mean the devs are retards. A tradeskill implementation that crashed when you hit buttons, or was as trivial as queueing products with zero skill involved would mean the devs are retards. A system that needs a few numbers in a database adjusted to smooth the economy just means that it needs tuning.
The tradeskill system is sound Kula. If it wasn't there wouldn't be stacks of people in the tradeskill instances doing them - even after the merchant prices were readjusted. You can go around listing individual bugs for as long as you like, but it's all bullshit. Individual bugs do not make a failed system. A bad design makes a failed system. I don't give a crap that my advanced books weren't scribable because the bug was that they were in the game at all (no recipes exist). One rare wood being bugged doesn't make a *system* unsound - it means that there's a single bug. A smattering of combines having issues doesn't make a *system* unsound - it means someone needs to fix those particular combines.
So, Kula, if you want to convince me the system is unsound then come up with systemic faults and not isolated bugs. Tell me why the *system* is faulty. Don't whine about a single combine that gives you issues. As with most non-professional test people, you seem to singularly lack the ability to see the difference between systemic and isolated issues. Do I deny that there are isolated issues? No, but there's no systemic issues and regardless of people's opinion of the scrapped beta system, the current system works and is good - with the possible exception of Provisioners (as I've said before).
Dd
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Kulaf
- Soverign Grand Postmaster General
- Posts: 7185
- Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 3:06 am
"So, Kula, if you want to convince me the system is unsound then come up with systemic faults and not isolated bugs."
Here is why the system is faulty:
1) Interdependance is a joke. There are classes that operate outside the realm of interdependance, while others cannot make a thing without the help of multiple other classes.
2) The system is borring. EQ1 tradeskills were more exciting that this system. Discrovery of recipes through buying a book is no way to run a TS system.
3) The system is too easy. If your regular round through manipulation of keys is + durability and + progress.....that is a marjor problem and those keys need to be balanced. Personally I never fail to get a Pristine combine unless I get distracted.
4) The Alchemist class is far too important to the system, and the offset to this (the advancement of TS societies) is not working as it should.
5) The Scribe class is getting devastated by the Adept I drop rate in game. This could have been offset by the fact that prior to this new system, Scribes made all of the spells and combat arts. Now of course the Alchemist makes some and the Jewler makes others......clearly those 2 classes didn't already benefit too much from this new system.
Put it this way Dd.....if the combat system in EQ2 was as "sound" as the TS system, we wouldn't be playing the game. SOE has said countless times that they always discover more bugs when more people use the system. Do you think it was wise for SOE to release a new TS system days before launch?
Here is why the system is faulty:
1) Interdependance is a joke. There are classes that operate outside the realm of interdependance, while others cannot make a thing without the help of multiple other classes.
2) The system is borring. EQ1 tradeskills were more exciting that this system. Discrovery of recipes through buying a book is no way to run a TS system.
3) The system is too easy. If your regular round through manipulation of keys is + durability and + progress.....that is a marjor problem and those keys need to be balanced. Personally I never fail to get a Pristine combine unless I get distracted.
4) The Alchemist class is far too important to the system, and the offset to this (the advancement of TS societies) is not working as it should.
5) The Scribe class is getting devastated by the Adept I drop rate in game. This could have been offset by the fact that prior to this new system, Scribes made all of the spells and combat arts. Now of course the Alchemist makes some and the Jewler makes others......clearly those 2 classes didn't already benefit too much from this new system.
Put it this way Dd.....if the combat system in EQ2 was as "sound" as the TS system, we wouldn't be playing the game. SOE has said countless times that they always discover more bugs when more people use the system. Do you think it was wise for SOE to release a new TS system days before launch?
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Bahd Zoolander
- Grand Inspector Inquisitor Commander
- Posts: 2636
- Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 9:42 pm
In general, unpaid, untrained, and unguided beta testers simply don't find or report much more than the most obvious of bugs, and when they do they don't report them in a clear, concise manner that is useful to the developers. For the most part you either get kids that just want to play the game for free, fanboys that refuse to believe it isn't already perfect, or wannabe game designers that repeatedly insist something is horribly broken because it is not exactly what they think of as perfect, and loudly complain that "the developers don't listen to us! We told them it was broken!"Kulaf wrote:SOE has said countless times that they always discover more bugs when more people use the system. Do you think it was wise for SOE to release a new TS system days before launch?
Was it wise for them to release a new system days before launch? Certainly much wiser than changing it after the game is released. The beta testers are going to complain no matter what they do, and by changing it before the release they avoid the inevitable cries of "nerf!" even if the end result is demonstrably better.
Bahd Zoolander - Transcendent - On Vacation