Kermit Gosnell

[Fallakin Kuvari]

Therapist: "Did it traumatize you when you were raped?"
Mother: "I was drunk and I really don't remember getting raped."

Therapist: "Did it traumatize you when you were raped?"
Mother: "It's hard to get through each day knowing there is life growing in me from that rape, I remember it vividly, the life in me is a constant reminder of that horrific event."

I just want to add that neither is realistic. All rape is traumatic whether the woman remembers the actual event or not, and no rape victim that wanted an abortion for psychological trauma would refer to the baby as "the life in me", rather "that thing", or possibly not directly refer to it at all.

Dd

Well put, Dd.

If god wants a say in US politics and legislation he's more than welcome to apply for citizenship, after which he can vote.

I'd say both God and Satan probably have invisible hands in all the fucked up shit that goes on in this life, whether they have "citizenship" or not.

[Jarochai Alabaster]

I'd say both God and Satan probably have invisible hands in all the fucked up shit that goes on in this life, whether they have "citizenship" or not.

Before either can interact with reality, they must first actually exist.

[Embar Angylwrath]

I think Abortion is disgusting in any circumstance, even when done on a victim of rape or incest. In a perfect world every rape victim would be given plan B within 5 days of the occurrence.

While my views may seem "logically inconsistent" to you, I'm definitely not the only person who holds these viewpoints on Abortion.

You understand "Plan B" is a form of abortion, correct?

[Massterloo]

"In a perfect world every rape victim" ....?

Lol, There would be no rape in a perfect world. More of my childish remarks I guess.

I agree with Jarochai, God and Satan have to be real. And if they were/are all things would still be God's responsibility. Satan is just another cop out. Blaming Satan for anything is really blaming God for letting Satan do it. So is any Bad thing, just God's convaluted 3982 step plan for the greater good? God could just as easily do the greater good with out needing the bad things at all. God needs a child born? Let two people in love, and married make the kid. Hopefully he don't need any more mass murderers. Hey, maybe abortions are God's way of killing evil babies?

[Fallakin Kuvari]

I think Abortion is disgusting in any circumstance, even when done on a victim of rape or incest. In a perfect world every rape victim would be given plan B within 5 days of the occurrence.

While my views may seem "logically inconsistent" to you, I'm definitely not the only person who holds these viewpoints on Abortion.

You understand "Plan B" is a form of abortion, correct?

Its a chemical compound, yes; Kills the embryo while its being formed -- which is why it only works in the first few days after the occurrence. -- Disgusting? Not as disgusting as killing a formed baby. Still killing a living being? Yes.

[Fallakin Kuvari]

I'd say both God and Satan probably have invisible hands in all the fucked up shit that goes on in this life, whether they have "citizenship" or not.

Before either can interact with reality, they must first actually exist.

Ye of little faith.

[Jarochai Alabaster]

I'd say both God and Satan probably have invisible hands in all the fucked up shit that goes on in this life, whether they have "citizenship" or not.

Before either can interact with reality, they must first actually exist.

Ye of little faith.

Exactly. I don't believe in shit that doesn't exist because I'm not an idiot.

[Fallakin Kuvari]

I'd say both God and Satan probably have invisible hands in all the fucked up shit that goes on in this life, whether they have "citizenship" or not.

Before either can interact with reality, they must first actually exist.

Ye of little faith.

Exactly. I don't believe in shit that doesn't exist because I'm not an idiot.

Or you have no faith.

Po-ta-toes, Po-tah-toes.

What do you think happens to "you" when you die? Do you "live on" in other forms or are you just dead and buried?

[Arathena]

I'd say both God and Satan probably have invisible hands in all the fucked up shit that goes on in this life, whether they have "citizenship" or not.

Before either can interact with reality, they must first actually exist.

Ye of little faith.

Exactly. I don't believe in shit that doesn't exist because I'm not an idiot.

Or you have no faith.

Po-ta-toes, Po-tah-toes.

What do you think happens to "you" when you die? Do you "live on" in other forms or are you just dead and buried?

I am made of chemistry and physics. I am the burn of glucose, the dance of ions between cells, all the motion of blood and bone and muscle and thought, and when I die, they cease, and I am nothing but the ash that we call meat. This is the only dance that I will have, and I do not want another, for if any part of that process is gone, it is not me. Even the most perfect of copies, even if all that were to be started again after my cease, like a fire built of half-burnt logs, it is not me - it is a seperate dance, a new fire. Even if it were possible to strip away a soul from my mind and body - it would not be me without the two.

So, too, until all those things have begun, there is no person to speak of, and what dim spark of thermodynamics and fortune animates that potentially human parasite certainly cannot overwhelm even the smallest of it's host's rights. There is no soul-seed planted by a sky-wizard there. Nothing magical. Just one more dance getting ready to start - but not yet begun.

[Embar Angylwrath]

I think Abortion is disgusting in any circumstance, even when done on a victim of rape or incest. In a perfect world every rape victim would be given plan B within 5 days of the occurrence.

While my views may seem "logically inconsistent" to you, I'm definitely not the only person who holds these viewpoints on Abortion.

You understand "Plan B" is a form of abortion, correct?

Its a chemical compound, yes; Kills the embryo while its being formed -- which is why it only works in the first few days after the occurrence. -- Disgusting? Not as disgusting as killing a formed baby. Still killing a living being? Yes.

Really?

So is it less disgusting to murder a baby rather than a fully formed adult? Less disgusting to murder a baby born without fingers than a baby with complete hands?

Again, your views on abortion are logically inconsistant. Perhaps you really are just another right wing nutter that parrots others without really taking the time to explore the consistancy of your statements.

[Fallakin Kuvari]

Maybe you need to learn to read.

Not as disgusting != not disgusting.

Which means; Yes, its still disgusting; Its still killing a life, whether full formed or not.

And so you're not confused Plan B is actually "pregnancy prevention" much like birth control and that is why you need to take it in the first 1-5 days of the occurrence; It keeps the embryo from implanting, iirc. Its not RU-486, the "abortion pill" which is much more horrible.

[Fallakin Kuvari]

Again, your views on abortion are logically inconsistant. Perhaps you really are just another right wing nutter that parrots others without really taking the time to explore the consistancy of your statements.

I've been dancing on abortion with either having it for certain instances or not at all for a long time -- rape and incest are the constants; Would I prefer not at all? Yes, I would. Is that achievable in our society? No it is not.

I've actually moved "further right" on 'Life of the mother' because in this day and age with all our technological advances what really is the % of women who have an 'at-risk' pregnancy? If I were to sit down and do research and see that maybe 20% of pregnancies are actually 'At-Risk', then I would probably say "Ok, if 1 in 5 women are truly 'at-risk' then maybe there is a case to be made" -- I haven't sat down and fully done that research, though.

[Massterloo]

Hmmm. That would make a wonderful derail....

Would you abort your baby if you knew it had no hands? The ultrsound showed it.
Would you abort your baby if you knew it was retarded/brain damaged? Ultrasound showed malformed head.

I'm not rich. I would. And who needs to grow old, still worring about the well being of thier 40 year old child? Who wants to be 85, and still wiping your kids ass?

[Fallakin Kuvari]

Would you kill a coma patient simply because they could not respond that they wanted to continue to live?

[Massterloo]

Im sure all coma, and brain dead patients while away the years thinking if wasting away slowly is worth it.

[Harlowe]

I don't think a male-majority should be making decisions with regard to a woman's body, especially if it's a life threatening situation, rape or incest = all of which were not a case of the woman not taking appropriate precautions. All of those are either tragic health situations or because a man violated her. So should guys be making the moral call on that? I think fucking not.

If you want a more fundamentalist society, there are places you can experience that.

[Jarochai Alabaster]

I don't think a male-majority should be making decisions with regard to a woman's body, especially if it's a life threatening situation, rape or incest = all of which were not a case of the woman not taking appropriate precautions. All of those are either tragic health situations or because a man violated her. So should guys be making the moral call on that? I think fucking not.

If you want a more fundamentalist society, there are places you can experience that.

Gender has nothing to do with it, and doesn't even need to come into the discussion.

The only thing that matters is that the state cannot and should not compel one individual to devote their body's materials and resources to another individual against their will. In no other circumstance is it even conceivable to suggest it. If I cannot force someone to donate tissue or organs for transplant to someone who needs them (Even after the prospective donor is dead), I also cannot force someone to use their body as an incubator against their will.

[Harlowe]

I assure you, it matters to women that not only are the rules are predominatly determined by men (look at the hearings that didn't include ONE woman), also in the circumstances I've laid out, these are acts forced upon women by men.

Like you pointed out, as a man, you don't have people forcing you to do anything you don't want to your body - such as organ transplants etc. We do. You can be violated and raped like a woman, but you won't have to face the consequences of the act and a pregnancy. You won't ever be in the situation of being denied an abortion when you have an unviable fetus in your body, even if that means you could die. Women are in these situations and gender does indeed matter.

[Harlowe]

I agree with everything but your first line. Gender is an issue because this is something being forced on only one of the sexes.

[Partha]

Personally I think God has his own plans -- maybe the life in the mother is meant to survive past her living and do great things; maybe they both survive and live on to do great things or be horrible people (same could be said for Rape/Incest -- but those are disgusting(though 2 wrongs also don't make a right)), maybe they both die tragically and the father goes on to do something he wouldn't have otherwise done... Who are we to make that decision?

With that attitude, we should just abolish hospitals. Fucked up nonsense isn't new coming from you, but this is a new lower level.