Obama Jobs Bill

Dumbass pinko-nazi-neoconservative-hippy-capitalists.
Lurker
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Re: Obama Jobs Bill

Post by Lurker »

Here's a great article explaining how the method used to set CEO pay guaranteed that compensation would spiral out of control.
At Amgen and at the vast majority of large U.S. companies, boards aim to pay their executives at levels equal to or above the median for executives at similar companies.

The idea behind setting executive pay this way, known as “peer benchmarking,” is to keep talented bosses from leaving.

But the practice has long been controversial because, as critics have pointed out, if every company tries to keep up with or exceed the median pay for executives, executive compensation will spiral upward, regardless of performance. Few if any corporate boards consider their executive teams to be below average, so the result has become known as the “Lake Wobegon” effect.
Bias can creep into the process in several ways. At Amgen, it began with the choosing of “peers.”

Amgen selected 11 companies in the biotech/pharmaceutical field, which seems natural enough. But most of the companies on the list are far larger than Amgen. Amgen’s revenue in 2010 was $15 billion; the median revenue of its peer companies was $40 billion, according to Equilar.

The practice of choosing peers that boost pay is common. Studies by Faulkender, Bizjak and ISS Corporate Services have shown that when choosing “peers” for pay-setting purposes, companies tend to choose larger firms or firms with more highly paid chief executives.
Moreover, the effects of his raises are not limited to Amgen.

In fact, because of peer benchmarking, raises at one company have ripple effects across corporate America: Thirty-seven other companies name Amgen as a “peer,” including Wal-Mart, MasterCard and Time-Warner, as well as other drug companies, according to Equilar.

Next year, at those companies that use Amgen as a peer, Sharer’s new compensation package will be used as a benchmark, propelling executive pay upward.
Not sure if this is the result of corruption or rampant system-wide stupidity.
Embar Angylwrath
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Re: Obama Jobs Bill

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

Neither. It's human nature at work. There are typically close ties with a CEO and the Board and/or compensation committee. Kind of a you scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours. Cronyism at worst.

That said, if you took that guys compensation of $21 million, (which I presume is a mix of cash, bonuses, options and perks), and reduce to to just $1 million, all cash, and took the other $20 million and gave it to the employees, the net result would be less than $100 bucks gross per month in the employees' paychecks. Something like that is lost on the OWS people.
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Alarius
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Re: Obama Jobs Bill

Post by Lurker »

Not sure what you mean. The extra $1200 per year for 16,000 people would provide much more economic stimulus than one guy making $21 million, and the extra money would make a real difference in those people's lives. That seems to be lost on you.
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Re: Obama Jobs Bill

Post by Jarochai Alabaster »

When you're making ~$1200/month, an 8% boost in income makes a world of difference.
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Embar Angylwrath
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Re: Obama Jobs Bill

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

Lurker wrote:Not sure what you mean. The extra $1200 per year for 16,000 people would provide much more economic stimulus than one guy making $21 million, and the extra money would make a real difference in those people's lives. That seems to be lost on you.
What... a dollar spent by a rich guy is worth less than a dollar spent by someone not as rich? Last I checked, consumption benefitted the economy, no matter who spent the cash. And I'm not sure that an extra $44 buck per paycheck is going to dramtically alter most people's lives.

@ Jaro - please show me where the average wage of those employees was $14K/year. Otherwise, get real and tell me how an extra $44 bucks every other weak is that dramtic of life style change for the vast majority of workers.
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Re: Obama Jobs Bill

Post by Jarochai Alabaster »

Embar Angylwrath wrote:
Lurker wrote:@ Jaro - please show me where the average wage of those employees was $14K/year. Otherwise, get real and tell me how an extra $44 bucks every other weak is that dramtic of life style change for the vast majority of workers.
I was referring to minimum-wage earners, not any specific set from any specific company (Of course, this was obvious given the numbers I used). And if you need me to explain to you how an 8% increase in income will benefit the people making 14k/year, you're stupid.
"I find it elevating and exhilarating to discover that we live in a universe which permits the evolution of molecular machines as intricate and subtle as we."
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Embar Angylwrath
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Re: Obama Jobs Bill

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

Ok, educate me. How many of those 17K plus employees are minimum wage?

I'm betting... mmmmm... not very fucking many.

By the way, I like the "you're stupid" comment. Shows how much you're taking after Lurker.
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Alarius
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Re: Obama Jobs Bill

Post by Lurker »

Embar wrote:What... a dollar spent by a rich guy is worth less than a dollar spent by someone not as rich? Last I checked, consumption benefitted the economy, no matter who spent the cash. And I'm not sure that an extra $44 buck per paycheck is going to dramtically alter most people's lives.
Before this devolves into open mockery...

You do understand that someone making a normal salary is more likely to spend their entire income and someone making $21 million per year is less likely to spend their entire income, right?

Embar says, "but the person making $21 million will invest that money!"

Well, you understand that the economic stimulus from investing the money is much, much, much lower than the economic stimulus from someone directly buying something, right?

You do have at least that level of understanding of how economics and the real world works?

If not... here come the ad homs and mockery.
Jarochai Alabaster
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Re: Obama Jobs Bill

Post by Jarochai Alabaster »

Embar Angylwrath wrote:Ok, educate me. How many of those 17K plus employees are minimum wage?

I'm betting... mmmmm... not very fucking many.

By the way, I like the "you're stupid" comment. Shows how much you're taking after Lurker.
1. I was referring to minimum wage-earners, not a specific set from any specific company (Is this difficult to understand or something?).

2. My "you're stupid" comment had a qualifier in front of it. Please read it again and see if you meet the specified qualification.

3. Your hypocrisy is showing. "You don't usually sound moronic Jaro, but now you do" ring any bells? I'd say that's a lot more ZOMG AD-HOM than a statement with a solid qualifier. Also note that I didn't deflect and call ad-hom like you just did, despite yours being a direct insult (While mine was not).
"I find it elevating and exhilarating to discover that we live in a universe which permits the evolution of molecular machines as intricate and subtle as we."
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Embar Angylwrath
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Re: Obama Jobs Bill

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

Lurker wrote:
Embar wrote:What... a dollar spent by a rich guy is worth less than a dollar spent by someone not as rich? Last I checked, consumption benefitted the economy, no matter who spent the cash. And I'm not sure that an extra $44 buck per paycheck is going to dramtically alter most people's lives.
Before this devolves into open mockery...

You do understand that someone making a normal salary is more likely to spend their entire income and someone making $21 million per year is less likely to spend their entire income, right?

Embar says, "but the person making $21 million will invest that money!"

Well, you understand that the economic stimulus from investing the money is much, much, much lower than the economic stimulus from someone directly buying something, right?

You do have at least that level of understanding of how economics and the real world works?

If not... here come the ad homs and mockery.

The SHORT TERM economic stimulus is lower, yes. Not the long term though. Capital investment in companies (which is what I think you're saying by "investing") provides money to hire workers, buy office furniture, upgrade IT systems, expand into new markets, etc. That allows a business to grow. As it gorws, it needs more workers. That need means more jobs. More jobs means more dollars injected into the economy.
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Re: Obama Jobs Bill

Post by Lurker »

Embar wrote:The SHORT TERM economic stimulus is lower, yes. Not the long term though.
Is that your opinion or can you substantiate that?
Embar Angylwrath
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Re: Obama Jobs Bill

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

Opinion. But a well reasoned one.

It's all based on the assumption that more people employed is the best thing for long term economic health. If you disagree with that, then tell me why.

It proceeds from there that all producing jobs in our capitialist model come from the private sector. Government jobs are a net drain on the economy because they are funded by taxes produced originally from private sector jobs (yes, public workers pay taxes too, but they pay them from a pool of money collected from private sector taxes originally).

Therefore it follows that the more businessed expand, the more jobs they create. And businesses need capital to expand. Capital is procured from investment, recapture of profit, or leverage (debt). Of the three, directly invested capital is the best, since it's fast, and shares risk. Profit recpature is slow. Leverage is the least attractive.

So yes, capital investment in businesses are the best long term solution to stimulate the economy. But if you'd like to argue how short term band-aid stimulus is great for the long term health of the economy, Im all ears.
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

Embar
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Re: Obama Jobs Bill

Post by Kulaf »

I think that you are ignoring that profit from sales is the primary driver of business. You don't need capital if you don't have revenues. And that revenue stream has more long reaching effects than a short term capital stream.

More people buying your goods is better than one guy buying your stock.
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Re: Obama Jobs Bill

Post by Ddrak »

Embar's argument is supply side - effectively "if you build it then people will buy it". Lurker's in demand side - "if you want it then people will build it".

I thought it was pretty settled that $1 spent was more stimulating to the economy than $1 invested, in both the short and long term?

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Re: Obama Jobs Bill

Post by Lurker »

QFE
Kulaf wrote:I think that you are ignoring that profit from sales is the primary driver of business. You don't need capital if you don't have revenues. And that revenue stream has more long reaching effects than a short term capital stream.

More people buying your goods is better than one guy buying your stock.
Ddrak wrote:I thought it was pretty settled that $1 spent was more stimulating to the economy than $1 invested, in both the short and long term?
Yes, it's been settled. Supply side economics is a failure and does not provide much economic stimulus in either the short or long term. We have a consumer driven economy. People spending money is what prompts businesses to seek investments and expand. Obviously, once that demand is there we need policies that make it possible for businesses to meet the demand. But it simply does not work in reverse.

And the part of his "well reasoned" argument dealing with the economic impact of public and private sector jobs was just bizarre. I can only imagine what propaganda source spewed that out.
Embar Angylwrath
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Re: Obama Jobs Bill

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

Ddrak wrote:Embar's argument is supply side - effectively "if you build it then people will buy it". Lurker's in demand side - "if you want it then people will build it".

I thought it was pretty settled that $1 spent was more stimulating to the economy than $1 invested, in both the short and long term?

Dd
I don't think you understand that a dollar "invested" in a company is a dollar spent. Cash means nothing to a company unless its moving (other than a safety net). Companies buy products, spen money on research, make payrolls. That has a tremendous stimulative effect.

@Lurker... funny how you see spending by companies, ruch people, etc, as trickle down, yet praise massive spending by one individual (Uncle Sam) as not trickle down. Can't have it both ways.
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Re: Obama Jobs Bill

Post by Lurker »

Embar wrote:I don't think you understand that a dollar "invested" in a company is a dollar spent.
Embar, a dollar invested does not provide as much economic stimulus as a dollar spent. Short term or long term. Period. Kulaf really said it best. "More people buying your goods is better than one guy buying your stock." That's an ecomonic fact. Demand leads to investment and growth. It does not work in reverse.
Embar wrote:@Lurker... funny how you see spending by companies, ruch people, etc, as trickle down, yet praise massive spending by one individual (Uncle Sam) as not trickle down. Can't have it both ways.
Yeah... because tax cuts for the wealthy produces the same result as government aid to the states or the unemployed or infrastructure investment. :roll:

The CBO and other impartial economic groups have found that tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations provide almost no stimulus, while infrastructure investments, direct aid to states, and tax cuts for the poor and middle class provide enormous stimulus.

It's almost as if you have no idea what you are talking about.
Embar Angylwrath
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Re: Obama Jobs Bill

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

Actually, I think we have a different definition of "investment".

Direct investment in a company... throwing capital at a company for an equity share... results in immediate spending.

Indirect investment (buying and trading of stocks) doesn't.

I'm talking aobut the former, not the latter.

Clear it up for you?
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Re: Obama Jobs Bill

Post by Ddrak »

Embar Angylwrath wrote:Actually, I think we have a different definition of "investment".

Direct investment in a company... throwing capital at a company for an equity share... results in immediate spending.
Actually, it doesn't. One of the biggest issues with the TARP money was that the companies it went to just stockpiled it rather than spending it.

Direct investment in people with no disposable income is far more likely to result in immediate spending, which is why social programs and capital works tend to make much more of a difference to the economy than supply side investment.

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Re: Obama Jobs Bill

Post by Kulaf »

Embar Angylwrath wrote:Actually, I think we have a different definition of "investment".

Direct investment in a company... throwing capital at a company for an equity share... results in immediate spending.
That would be true if the only reason a company would issue stock is because they wanted cash for a project. And while it is always the end result that the company gains cash (or some other asset) from the issuance of stock, it does not always follow that the company spends said asset.
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