The Official Abortion Thread

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Re: The Official Abortion Thread

Post by Ddrak »

Arathena wrote:Well, now, that brings up an entirely less stupid question: Under what circumstances is it morally acceptable to take a life? Forget this whole 'abortion' and 'clump of cells' versus 'baby' bullshit - When is it okay to kill? Where does the right to life end?
Are you talking legally or morally?

Legally - there is no right to life at all in the absolute sense. You have the right to not be actively killed, but you have to take care of yourself. As an unborn baby has no ability to take care of itself, it has no right to demand anyone else does either, specifically the mother. Hence I can't see abortion as a murder legally speaking.

Morally speaking, I think someone has the duty to preserve life wherever possible, where it doesn't put more lives in jeopardy either directly or indirectly. That's an entirely different thing and unless you want to start arresting people for murder if they walk past a car accident without rendering assistance then you have to keep the two separate.

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Re: The Official Abortion Thread

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

If a fetus was recognized as a human life, the LEGAL principles of duty of care kick in. In the US, if you are caring for another person, whether you want to or not, you are respsonsible for the life of that person. That means if the person dies due to actions (or inactions) you take you are responsible.

To answer Parth - If a woman has an abortion, I think she should be charged with a crime. Same for a medical professional who performs an abortion.

To answer Kulaf - pregnancy isn't normally a life-threatening condition. Abortion is always 100% fatal. However, if the mother were placed in a life-threatening condition, you have to save the life of the mother, since without the mother, the child will die anyway.

So, let me toss some questions back at you. If a fetus is just a clump of cells, what do you think of the laws on the books that consider the killing of a pregnant mother a double homicide, regardless of the viability of the fetus?
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Re: The Official Abortion Thread

Post by Partha »

They're idiocy, plain and simple, and should be rewritten (and probably will be after a SC challenge) to require viability to obtain the second murder charge.

Now, what should the crime be if a person commits abortion? What's the punishment?
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Re: The Official Abortion Thread

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

Partha wrote:They're idiocy, plain and simple, and should be rewritten (and probably will be after a SC challenge) to require viability to obtain the second murder charge.

Now, what should the crime be if a person commits abortion? What's the punishment?
Well, if there was no crime upon a person (if, in your eyes a fetus isn't a person), then it would be a interference with property rights. Which is a civil matter typically. So lets say Dd's wife was preggers. In your world, I could walk up to Dd's wife before she was 23 weeks pregnant (viability envelope), kick her in the gut causing the fetus to spontaneously abort, and suffer nothing more than an assault charge, an ass beating from Dd, and maybe a civil suit for, I don't know, mental anguish, pain and suffering.
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Re: The Official Abortion Thread

Post by Partha »

You forgot one punishment.

The inevitable shanking while you're in jail.
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Re: The Official Abortion Thread

Post by Select »

Eh, I'm cool with the double homicide rules... with the reasoning that no one has the right to choose to end the life of potential human being other than the parents and doctor and it should be done through a legally acceptable medical procedure. For a stranger to just come up and punch her gut, they've chosen to end a potential life and it's not their place to decide that. So I see it as certain people have rights in that situation and others have no place.
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Re: The Official Abortion Thread

Post by Klast Brell »

Embar Angylwrath wrote:
Some points...

You, too, are just a "clump of cells".

At what point in the pregnancy does a fetus become a baby, in your eyes? At what point does it become a person?
Sorry for the multiple posts. I'm just now catching up on this thread.

Speaking as the big evil atheist on the board Your sarcastic arguments that an adult human is just a clump of cells do not move me. I agree 100% that we are all just a clump of cells.
At what point does a zygote or blastocyst or embryo or fetus become a human being? At the point where is can survive outside the uterus.

If you try and take it backwards from there you end up with other moral quandaries. Consider this. A sperm cell is alive. An egg cell is alive. Put them together and they make another cell. If you believe that the combination of a sperm and egg are a life worth saving, do you also believe that they have any worth before they are combined? If you believe that the cell that results from conception is life, are the 2 cells which must combine to produce it life as well? If so why? If not why not?
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Re: The Official Abortion Thread

Post by Klast Brell »

Embar Angylwrath wrote:Most social conservatives were against unplugging Schiavo, and letting her slowly dehydrate and starve to death.

That being said, the situation between Schiavo and a fetus is completely different. A fetus is well adept at taking care of itself as long as the mother takes care of herself, and the fetus isn't interfererd with, like being vacuumed out of the womb, or having its brains sucked out. A fetus can survive naturally.
I have to strongly disagree with you here. If Shiavo received the same life support a fetus does in a uterus she would have survived just as well. A fetus receives oxygen and nutrients via the umbilical cord. Wastes are removed in the same way and and excreted by the mother as well. This is no different than the care Shiavo was receiving. And if you cut the umbilical cord that would be no different than cutting Shiavo's tube.

PS when they did the autopsy they found out that her brains had dissolved to the consistency of oatmeal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terri_Schiavo#Autopsy
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Re: The Official Abortion Thread

Post by Klast Brell »

Embar Angylwrath wrote:So, let me toss some questions back at you. If a fetus is just a clump of cells, what do you think of the laws on the books that consider the killing of a pregnant mother a double homicide, regardless of the viability of the fetus?
Those laws like the laws proposed in some states that would require a certificate of death for the product of of an abortion were put in place by the same people who are in agreement with you on abortion. They are attempts to create a legal precedent under which a zygote, blastocyct or fetus can be defined by a court of law as having the same legal status as a person. I am just as vigorously opposed to them as I am to any other law which seeks to obstruct access to abortion.
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Re: The Official Abortion Thread

Post by Rsak »

I don't think the double-homicide laws are necessarily evil or motivated by a right to life. There should be a stiffer crime if you beat a pregnant woman until the pregnancy miscarries.

However whether it applies to abortion or not is solely in the hands of the mother carrying that fetus. The mother except in situations of invetro surrogate mothers, has legal control over whether the fetus has a right to legal protection (double homicide) or no such rights (abortion).

So if the mother wants to abort then legal documentation can be created to protect the doctors performing the abortion. And if she intends to give birth (which should be the default conclusion) then any violent crime that shows intent to harm the fetus should be prosecuted as such. Yet without that motive you cannot be charged with double-homicide laws such as these (car accident for example).
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Re: The Official Abortion Thread

Post by Ddrak »

Embar Angylwrath wrote:If a fetus was recognized as a human life, the LEGAL principles of duty of care kick in. In the US, if you are caring for another person, whether you want to or not, you are respsonsible for the life of that person. That means if the person dies due to actions (or inactions) you take you are responsible.
Yes, but the problem there is with duty of care there is always an avenue out (giving up the child). Similarly people can relatively easily be rules not fit to provide care and have an agency such as family services remove the child from their care. To keep the analogy you have to find a way that a pre-viable baby can be given up by the mother, which by definition is impossible.
So, let me toss some questions back at you. If a fetus is just a clump of cells, what do you think of the laws on the books that consider the killing of a pregnant mother a double homicide, regardless of the viability of the fetus?
It's an interesting question. To me, the idea of abortion is a mother taking her right to give up responsibility for the care of the unborn infant. The fact the infant is unable to find an alternative is the part that kills it. Killing the mother is a very different act. The problem I have with the laws is they are used as a tool to muddy the abortion debate when I don't see how they are really related.

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Re: The Official Abortion Thread

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

Rsak wrote:I don't think the double-homicide laws are necessarily evil or motivated by a right to life. There should be a stiffer crime if you beat a pregnant woman until the pregnancy miscarries.

However whether it applies to abortion or not is solely in the hands of the mother carrying that fetus. The mother except in situations of invetro surrogate mothers, has legal control over whether the fetus has a right to legal protection (double homicide) or no such rights (abortion).

So if the mother wants to abort then legal documentation can be created to protect the doctors performing the abortion. And if she intends to give birth (which should be the default conclusion) then any violent crime that shows intent to harm the fetus should be prosecuted as such. Yet without that motive you cannot be charged with double-homicide laws such as these (car accident for example).
Sounds a lot like arguments for slavery. Or for the elimination of a class of people.

Where your (and Dd's) argument fails, is that in both cases, you are making the definition of human life dependent on the perceived worth of the life. If the mother wants it, its a human. If the mother doesn't want, suddenly it becomes not a human (or, to be more correct, perhaps you see it as a human without rights). In essence, you are placing the rights of one class of individuals, pregnant women, over the rights of another class of people, unborn children. It's close to the same argument we used to justify extermination of the American Indians. The Nazis used it pretty well, too. As did countless other nations when they didn't want to deal with a certain class of humans.

Both of you seem to see a fetus as a human. So what you both are doing is making the rights of one class of human dependent upon the whim of another class of human.
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Re: The Official Abortion Thread

Post by Select »

Are you attacking those who see a fetus as a human in an attempt to sway them, Embar?
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Re: The Official Abortion Thread

Post by Taxious »

Here is what I'm gathering so far with regard to where people draw the line of when a clump of cells becomes a human.

Rsak: Draws the line at conception. "It is a life as soon as you have a unique genetic code"
Dd: Viability. As long as the baby can live outside of the womb, don't kill it. "An abortion past the point of viability is completely unnecessary in all cases bar immediate medical harm to the mother."
Tarfang: Draws the line at conception unless it involves rape. "The extreme cases, are those of rape. I'm not sure it's fair to voice my concern there. As a pro-lifer I know where I stand."
Select: Viability. "When the baby is born, the mother can hand it to the father or other family members for care. She can even put it down in its crib for a break. During the pregnancy, the fetus/baby is with her 24/7 and she is the sole caregiver."
Partha: Viability. "Banning abortions makes women slaves. Being of a general 'slavery is bad' mindset, I support it generally when the fetus is nonviable."
Saevrok: When it has a heartbeat. "take care of it before it has a heartbeat"
Embar: Hasn't really said yet but unless he is even more conservative than I'm thinking, I'm assuming conception. "Abortion is murder. There is no justification for it under any circumstances, including rape and incest."
Klast: Viability "At what point does a zygote or blastocyst or embryo or fetus become a human being? At the point where is can survive outside the uterus."
Taxious: I'll jump on the viability bandwagon.

So that's 3 for conception, 5 for viability, and 1 for 6-8 weeks after conception when the heart starts beating.
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Re: The Official Abortion Thread

Post by Ddrak »

Embar Angylwrath wrote:Sounds a lot like arguments for slavery. Or for the elimination of a class of people.

Where your (and Dd's) argument fails, is that in both cases, you are making the definition of human life dependent on the perceived worth of the life. If the mother wants it, its a human. If the mother doesn't want, suddenly it becomes not a human (or, to be more correct, perhaps you see it as a human without rights). In essence, you are placing the rights of one class of individuals, pregnant women, over the rights of another class of people, unborn children. It's close to the same argument we used to justify extermination of the American Indians. The Nazis used it pretty well, too. As did countless other nations when they didn't want to deal with a certain class of humans.

Both of you seem to see a fetus as a human. So what you both are doing is making the rights of one class of human dependent upon the whim of another class of human.
No. That's actually YOUR argument.

You're saying that a pregnant woman is a slave to the baby inside her. She has no rights other than to be a life support machine for 9 months. I am saying that the rights of the baby and the rights of the mother are equal - both have the (legal) right to terminate the dependency whenever they choose.

Here's a quick summary for you:

Pro-choice: Rights of baby are equivalent to rights of mother. Both have the option to terminate the dependency, however prior to viability that choice is fatal for the baby.
Anti-choice: Rights of baby supercede rights of mother. Mother is a complete slave to the need of a baby for an incubator. Mother has no right to terminate the ability.

See the difference? You are saying a woman has no rights at all when put in the light of a baby who cannot live without her support. You're the one with the disparity in rights and you're the one with the apparent idea that women are some sort of slave without rights. You can't pass that one off - the bigotry is all on your side of the argument, not mine.

Tell me if I'm wrong, but you are actually saying that rights of the baby supercede the rights of the mother aren't you?

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Re: The Official Abortion Thread

Post by Kulaf »

Embar Angylwrath wrote:To answer Kulaf - pregnancy isn't normally a life-threatening condition. Abortion is always 100% fatal. However, if the mother were placed in a life-threatening condition, you have to save the life of the mother, since without the mother, the child will die anyway.
You'd like it to be that easy because then it doesn't comingle with your stance on the death penalty.....but contrary to how simple you want this to be.....it's not and you know it.

For the sake of arguement let's say that there is a 50% chance that the mother might die if the fetus is carried to term.....and another 10% chance that if carried to the point of surviveabilty that the mother might die from a C-section to remove the baby. Then what Embar?

As you so eliquently put in the death penalty thread......what number does it take? And why should the government decide who lives or dies?
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Re: The Official Abortion Thread

Post by Fobbon Lazyfoot »

At what point does a zygote or blastocyst or embryo or fetus become a human being? At the point where is can survive outside the uterus.
What do you mean "survive"? Shit my 50 year old mother wouldn't be able to survive if it wasn't for the state check that came in every month.

I'm curious about the whole "unique genetic code" thing, too. What about twins? Are they one person, or two people? How about ramets of Agave or other plants that reproduce by clonal fragmentation or other such mechanisms? What about asexually reproducing worms and nematodes? If humans reproduced asexually, would abortion be acceptable? Cancer cells have unique genetic makeups, but they're not their own organisms, or are they? Cells in the salivary glands of Drosophila have sometimes wildly altered genetic makeups from the rest of the organism - are they individual unicellular organisms living within a larger host?

Granted I'm studying botany right now, so my perceptions are a little bit skewed in that respect, but I've been taught to define an "individual" or "organism" as a mass of organic matter that is physiologically distinct from other masses of organic matter OR a genetically distinct mass of organic matter. Fetuses are genetically distinct, but not physiologically distinct. Which takes precedence? If it's not ok to kill genetically distinct but physiologically dependent organisms, is it then OK to kill physiologically independent but genetically identical individuals, like twins?

Viruses also present a lovely little conundrum. Many scientists don't consider viruses to be living things - they cannot reproduce on their own, making them physiologically dependent but genetically independent organisms. So does that mean fetuses, as physiologically dependent but genetically independent organisms, are not in their own respect living?

How about a few steps further: what about mutualistic relationships? You would have an awfully hard time getting through the day if it wasn't for your symbiotic bacterial flora. You're dependent upon another living thing, so is murder acceptable?

The reality is you can't define life or the worthiness of life in a biological sense. You can't draw the line at conception, or birth, or viability, because life is an awfully abstract concept. They call it the "circle of life" for a reason - where does the circle begin and end?

The line, I beleive, is at sentience. Sentient organisms hold a unique place in the realm of life, because they are capable of making altruistic choices. We, as humans, are capable of granting resources, life, and reproductive ability to other organisms at a cost to ourselves. We can set aside perfectly good farmland for the conservation of certain plants and animals. We can sacrifice free-range livestock in an effort to keep wolf populations afloat. To my knowledge, no other organism is capable of thinking outside its own reproductive and survival value.

To that extent, I think abortion is a primitive practice. It's a cousin to ethnic cleansing and genetic purification. Hitler did a good job aborting genetically unfit individuals from psyche wards and handicap hospitals, and that's exactly what we're doing with abortion: removing (potential) individuals from our population because they serve no purpose to ourselves as individuals. They lower our quality of life, and therefore our ability to survive. There's nothing wrong with lions killing cubs that aren't theirs, but there is something wrong with human infanticide - we know better.

Is there anything inherently wrong with abortion? Nope, nothing at all - as long as you're okay taking a step back on the evolutionary line.
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Re: The Official Abortion Thread

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

Kulaf wrote:
Embar Angylwrath wrote:To answer Kulaf - pregnancy isn't normally a life-threatening condition. Abortion is always 100% fatal. However, if the mother were placed in a life-threatening condition, you have to save the life of the mother, since without the mother, the child will die anyway.
You'd like it to be that easy because then it doesn't comingle with your stance on the death penalty.....but contrary to how simple you want this to be.....it's not and you know it.

For the sake of arguement let's say that there is a 50% chance that the mother might die if the fetus is carried to term.....and another 10% chance that if carried to the point of surviveabilty that the mother might die from a C-section to remove the baby. Then what Embar?

As you so eliquently put in the death penalty thread......what number does it take? And why should the government decide who lives or dies?
Well, Kulaf. It is that easy. Its the matter of changing perception that is difficult.

And I chuckle when people trying to justify abortion use unrealistic hypotheticals to support a flawed argument. Pregnancy isn't 50% fatal my friend. It just doesn't carry all the OMGRISKORZ that people on your side of the fence would like to portray it. Usually, I see this type of argument when people don't have a logical basis upon which to suport their position. They resort to boogey-men, and situations that just aren't relevant in real life.

Again, if the mother's life is in danger, try to save the mother. If saving the mother inadvertantly results in the death of fetus, then the death is a tragic result of trying to save both.

As to your upside down Flint-Rubble-Double Cake of "why should the government decide who lives or dies", I would say that the government shouldn't say who lives or dies, but also shouldn't allow the the murder of its citizens on the whim of another citizen. Are you saying that the government should just get the hell out of the way and allow anyone to kill another, just because they want to? Is that getting in the way of a decision of who lives and who dies?

Dude, you're making nonsensical arguments while standing on your head, which is probably appropriate since your talking out your ass.
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Re: The Official Abortion Thread

Post by Rsak »

Embar,

Just because I consider a fetus equivalent to a human life in terms of potential.. it is simply not equal to a human life yet. It has not passed the simple test of existing on its own. The mother has more rights then the fetus because the mother was there first.

As the old saying goes.. you are within your rights to go swinging your arms around in circles up until you reach another person's face. The fetus does not have any rights until viability and autonomy, until that point the mother will always supersede those of the fetus.
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Re: The Official Abortion Thread

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

Select wrote:Are you attacking those who see a fetus as a human in an attempt to sway them, Embar?
No Select. I'm not trying to sway anyone. I am, however, pointing out the logical inconsistancies in their arguments. They can choose to see, or stick with their denial. Denial is such a comfortable blanket, and rationalization is like oxygen to some people. In fact, rationalization is more important thatn eating and sex. Think about it Select. When was the last time you went 24 hours without rationalizing something you did, or beleived in? The same holds true for most people.

That being said, of anyone, you and Klast probably have the most honest argument. You two don't see a fetus as a human. You see it as.. well, I don't know what you see it as, but you don't see it as human. Once relieved of that belief, you can choose to treat a fetus as nothing more than some snot, or a menstrual flow, or a fingernail. I disagree, but at least your's is an honest argument.

People who think like Dd and Rsak are on a more precarious position. They see a fetus as human, but are ok with killing that human, even if that human did nothing wrong. They place the value of that human's life solely in the mother's perception of the value of the fetus. They (well, Dd anyway), call them mothers nothing more than incubators, but that belies the truth. Mothers aren't strapped down and warehoused until they give birth. They enjoy all the freedoms any other citizen enjoys, but they are placed in a caregiver role for a few months. To call them nothing but incubators is a mysoginisitic insult, in my opinion. If and when you get pregnant, Select, I doubt you will feel that you are just a baby-support machine.

Will I "win" this debate? No. And I'm not trying to. This has been hashed out before in several threads. I do, however, feel the need to vigorously question beliefs and attitudes about abortion when the opportunity arises. Just like I question those about the death penalty. Hell, if I'm wrong, I'm guilty of believing in the dignity of human life.

But what if you're wrong?
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