Obama and unlimited detention

[Ddrak]

He can't have, if they are pushing ahead with trials. Then again, the Geneva conventions seem to have been tossed regardless.

Dd

[Lurker]

You posted at the same time I posted this. It's going to take more than 100 days to untangle the mess he was left. You need more empathy!

[Trollbait]

the way we

Wait a minute....."we"...?

I thought you guys were just people posting on a messgae board....

[Lurker]

I don't know much

I agree.

[Embar Angylwrath]

"U.S. federal courts are a perfectly sound system to try any and all detainees. They have brought other terror suspects to justice, and there is no reason why these courts cannot continue to do the same."

That was Obama... so why are military tribunals back in the mix?

[Kulaf]

Simple.....it's for the same reason I said he would mitigate his Iraq withdrawal to be the same as the outgoing administration. Things look a lot different when you are in charge and have access to all of the facts.

[Embar Angylwrath]

He seems to be doing a lot of 180s in his first 100 days.

I'm going to release the photos.
I'm not going to release the photos.

I'm going to get rid of military tribunals.
I'm going to keep the military tribunals.

I'm going to bring all the soldiers home from Iraq within 16 months.
I'm going to leave soldiers in Iraq, and leave the timing open.

I'm going to provide complete transparency so you know where every dime of bailout money is going.
I'm not going to tell you who we give your tax dollars to.

I'm going to force the issue on renegotiating NAFTA.
I'm not going to force the issue.

I think Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided.
The Palestinians and Jews have to divide Jeruslaem.

We shouldn't eavesdrop or give immunity to companies that do.
We should eavesdrop and give immunity to the companies that help us.

I am anti-death penalty.
Not anymore.

All that in just 100 days. Should make the next 100 days interesting.

[Lurker]

Can you provide links to support those statements?

Some of them seem to be completely wrong. For example, Obama's Iraq position hasn't changed other than taking 19 months isntead of 16 months. He's on record since 2006 as supporting military tribunals with proper safeguards. You also seem to be confusing promises of transparency for Recovery funds with TARP bailout money. The immunity for companies involved in wiretapping was an issue a couple years ago and wasn't in the last 100 days. I'm not sure what you are referring to with the death penalty or Israel.

Since you only accept posts with detailed links now, can you provide some for those statements so we know you aren't just making shit up or completely misrepresenting things?

edit: Looked some up and they are complete misrepresentations. I look forward to your links though.

[Rsak]

When you get to make the policies you get to defend them as well. It was exactly the same when your team had the ball. We could sit there throwing all the rocks we wanted. We had been denied all the power, so your side bore the full responsibility.
Now we have all the power and you get to throw all the rocks you want. Just be careful you don't hit yourself with those rocks. We've only had the ball for a very short time. It makes you look pretty foolish when you sit the criticizing the way we clean up the mess you made.

I just can't agree with the notion that a person who voted for a President/Congress/Etc takes ownership for every deed committed good or bad. Nor can I agree with the notion that voting against that President/Congress/Etc denies you any power.

Your representatives answer to you whether you belong to their party or not.

[Embar Angylwrath]

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9982898-7.html

http://www.ombwatch.org/node/9999

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090516/pl ... guantanamo

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/ ... 19341.aspx

That's just a few... plenty more out there, I wonder why all of a sudden you can't seem to do a Google search. Maybe you don't want to see what is really going on? Are you caught up in hero worship? Are you able to objectively critque your government?

[Lurker]

The photos is the only valid one.

The Telecom Immunity issue was from 2008. You said it was in the last 100 days.

The military tribunal issue is a fabrication since he's been on record since 2006 supporting them as long as protections are restored.

The Jerusalem one is from 2008, not the last 100 days, and is also a misrepresentation. Obama is still in favor of Israeli controlled Jerusalem but understands that it's an issue the two sides need to resolve.

As I said, your list was mostly bullshit.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Uuhhhh.... he was in no position to do anything until he became President, which has been for about 100 days. Just because it surfaced last year doesn't mean he can't do anyhtinhg about it.

Oh, and on the transparency thing. Remember his promise to post all bills online for 5 days before he signs them into law? Another broken promise. I think he's signed, what, 11 bills or so? Only six have been posted online, and zero have been up for the entire five days.

[Lurker]

Uuhhhh.... he was in no position to do anything until he became President, which has been for about 100 days. Just because it surfaced last year doesn't mean he can't do anyhtinhg about it.

Uhhhhhhh.... that isn't what you said.

You said that in the last 100 days he was against eavesdropping and immunity, and that now he's for it. That's was a lie on your part.

You said he was against dividing Jerusalem and now he says they must divide it. That's also a lie.

You said he was against the Death penalty and now he's for it. Lie.

So my question to you is, whoever gave you this flip-flop in the last 100 days list that is so wrong, are you going to stop trusting that source?

Oh, and on the transparency thing. Remember his promise to post all bills online for 5 days before he signs them into law? Another broken promise. I think he's signed, what, 11 bills or so? Only six have been posted online, and zero have been up for the entire five days.

True... you'll always have that one to fall back on. He broke that promise. Start the impeachment proceedings.

[Lurker]

I'm going to bring all the soldiers home from Iraq within 16 months.
I'm going to leave soldiers in Iraq, and leave the timing open.

You forgot to provide links for this one. Make sure to prove both statements.

edit:

and this one...

I am anti-death penalty.
Not anymore.

The Iraq one is a complete fabrication of his original position, and I'll let you expand the death penalty one from the 100 days you originally claimed to a window of 10 years.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Uuhhhh.... he was in no position to do anything until he became President, which has been for about 100 days. Just because it surfaced last year doesn't mean he can't do anyhtinhg about it.

Uhhhhhhh.... that isn't what you said.

You said that in the last 100 days he was against eavesdropping and immunity, and that now he's for it. That's was a lie on your part.

You said he was against dividing Jerusalem and now he says they must divide it. That's also a lie.

You said he was against the Death penalty and now he's for it. Lie.

So my question to you is, whoever gave you this flip-flop in the last 100 days list that is so wrong, are you going to stop trusting that source?

Oh, and on the transparency thing. Remember his promise to post all bills online for 5 days before he signs them into law? Another broken promise. I think he's signed, what, 11 bills or so? Only six have been posted online, and zero have been up for the entire five days.

True... you'll always have that one to fall back on. He broke that promise. Start the impeachment proceedings.

I said he did 180s in the first 100 days. Which means a 180 on a policy position he held before or after his election.

[Lurker]

Ha!!!!! Why expand it to 100 days then? Just claim he did all that his first week.

And that still doesn't address the fact that other than the photos and NAFTA, they are just plain wrong.

[Lurker]

Because it's 102 outside, I'm bored, and Embar loves him some links.

I'm going to bring all the soldiers home from Iraq within 16 months.
I'm going to leave soldiers in Iraq, and leave the timing open.

Obama's position on Iraq during the campaign said "a residual force will remain in Iraq and in the region to conduct targeted counter-terrorism missions against al Qaeda in Iraq and to protect American diplomatic and civilian personnel. They will not build permanent bases in Iraq, but will continue efforts to train and support the Iraqi security forces as long as Iraqi leaders move toward political reconciliation and away from sectarianism."

So other than changing a 16 month timeline to 19 months, it's exactly the same. Turns out Obama's 180 about leaving soldiers was actually just Embar not knowing what he's talking about.

==========

I think Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided.
The Palestinians and Jews have to divide Jeruslaem.

Obama said to AIPAC in 2008, "Let me be clear. Israel's security is sacrosanct. It is non-negotiable. The Palestinians need a state that is contiguous and cohesive, and that allows them to prosper — but any agreement with the Palestinian people must preserve Israel's identity as a Jewish state, with secure, recognized and defensible borders. Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided."

A few days later he softened the rhetoric and said, "obviously, it's going to be up to the parties to negotiate a range of these issues. And Jerusalem will be part of those negotiations." and "As a practical matter, it would be very difficult to execute. And I think that it is smart for us to -- to work through a system in which everybody has access to the extraordinary religious sites in Old Jerusalem but that Israel has a legitimate claim on that city." The next month he said, "I continue to say that Jerusalem will be the capital of Israel. I also have said it is important that we don't simply slice the city in half."

Again, all this took place in 2008, but where's the 180? Softening a statement isn't a 180. Where's Obama's statement that "Palestinians and Jews have to divide Jerusalem", like Embar claimed?

==========

I am anti-death penalty.
Not anymore.

Here's a link to a 2007 post on a death penalty opposition site. It's about Obama's conditional support for the death penalty and it highlights a Washington Post story with excepts from Obama's memior and his actions in the Illinois Senate. The death penalty opponents seem to think Obama isn't anti-death penalty. Maybe Embar can provide some clue what he's talking about here.


=========

I'm going to get rid of military tribunals.
I'm going to keep the military tribunals.

We already talked about Obama's support for military tribunals here. Maybe Embar can link to Obama's pledge to get rid of them.

This is usually the point in the discussion where Jecks would declare victory for causing someone to respond on a message board. It'll be interesting to see what Embar does.