Pro Incest

[Klast Brell]

Before i get in to it let me say strongly that I believe in cultural ideas of right and wrong. If your personal society sees something as horrible you have every right to be horrified and traumatized. A typical US woman will have no problem with having her hat removed in public. Women from Saudi Arabia may feel as violated by having their head ware removed in public as a woman from Ohio would feel about having her top removed in public.

That said I think there are very few things that are universally traumatic across all cultural boundaries. The Sambia people of New Guinea force all boys starting a about age 7 to fellate older boys. Likewise when they reach adolescence they switch roles and are fellated by the younger boys. http://faculty.mdc.edu/jmcnair/Joepages ... Sambia.htm They believe that this practice is the only way to make the men fertile and able to sire children. At age 17 or 18 they are married and same sex activity ends. Every man in that culture goes through this experience, but they are not fucked up for life the way someone from another culture would be.

An American kid would have every right to be traumatized for life if put through such an experience. I would seriously question their sanity if they were not messed up by having their elders force them to do these acts for as much as ten years.

[Alluveal]

A friend of mine from Bahrain said that as a rite of passage, older boys at the (equivalent of) high school in his town would often force the younger ones to have anal sex--as a way of "making them a man." I never got that. He had it done to him, but had never done it to someone else. He said it's still happening and something you never read about or hear in the news.

They have some pretty whacked out rites of initiation all over the world.

I think mother nature has the final say. You get too many "pure" bloodlines and you start having severe congenital defects.

The felatio thing is just mind-boggling to me (as is the sodomy.)

[Freecare Spiritwise]

In general I don't really care who fucks whom. Let that be an individual choice, and let a higher power decides who goes to heaven or hell.

But I do have strong opinions about anyone who would take advantage of a position of authority over non-adults. Grown woman fucks her uncle (wife's friend did that)? I could care less. It's creepy, and I couldn't imagine how that would be anyone's first choice, but again, let a higher power decide the morality of that. The uncle that fondles his underage nieces? That violates the basic human contract that says we should nurture and care for our children until they are old enough to make their own decisions and decide for themselves the right or wrongness of something.

Whatever adults do in the privacy of their own homes - fuck your sister or slam heroin for all I care - is all good times as far as I'm concerned, as long as their actions don't cause harm to others. I'll call CPS if there's a child involved, but for adults, I have a total lack of curiosity of what people do in private.

For sure, I won't stay long at the family picnic if everyone's making out with each other. But I won't judge.

[Ddrak]

For sure, I won't stay long at the family picnic if everyone's making out with each other. But I won't judge.

Yeah, I never found WV that interesting either.

Dd

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

Tax brought up a good point with homosexuality. there are some things that infringe upon what we simply think to be right, and wrong... incest, homosexuality, sodomy, fellatio, what have you while Klast brought up a good point about what's acceptable and what's not per culture. I don't believe stoning a woman to death in the street or cutting off a mans hand are acceptable forms of punishment, however thats because I wasn't raised in a culture where it's the norm, and I don't believe incest between immediate family is appropriate either because it infringes on everything I hold sacred as a mother (which I believe is Allu's problem that she can't quite explain).

As a mother I can't see my children or nieces and nephews as sexual objects, and as a woman I can't see my father or uncles as a sexual object, but thats because I was not brought up in a family where I was raped every night by family. I have to think that even then I'd be more turned off by the idea then I am having grown up in a stable, loving family. Immediate family is the bond that formed when you're born and raised. there are lots of people who have grown up in homes where they weren't treated with the kind of love that parents should have, but they still say they know their parents love them. When you love someone the way you're supposed to love your family, then you shouldn't be making love to them. It's about that simple.

I feel the same way about people raised like siblings even though they may not be. I see no distinction between step family and blood family. I have a girlfriend who was involved with her fathers, girlfriends son. While the parents never married they did live together, all of them, in the same house for many years, and I thought the relationship was wrong, no matter what. This man was raised as her older brother, then to turn around and be sleeping her just seemed wrong, and what was worse in my mind was that the parents knew about it and didn't seem to care much. I guess they were of the thought that "well they're not related"... it's still wrong, and it an abuse of the power and trust that someone else has given you.

thats what it really comes down to, the abuse of the power of love that someone else has given to you freely. I understand consenting adults might rationalize things anyway they want, but it's wrong, no matter how you look at it. I wouldn't tell someone to their face "You're fucking disgusting" but if a girlfriend came to me and suggested she had feelings for her cousin, or brother, or uncle or whomever then I'd certainly state my feelings on the subject, or give her my opinion when asked.

[Taxious]

thats what it really comes down to, the abuse of the power of love that someone else has given to you freely.

That's a good point, but not always the case.

[Alluveal]

You ever see that movie, Spanking the Monkey? That's some disturbed sheeet there.

[Jarochai Alabaster]

Creeeeepy fuckin movie!

[Alluveal]

I just saw a show on BBC last night about incestuous romance. It documented the experiences of couples who were related (either full siblings or half siblings.) I caught it about halfway through.

They showed a brother/sister that had a daughter (who was around 2) and lived together. Apparently, he had already served prison time for committing incest and producing a child, got out and had been living with his sister and daughter in secret. Because of a fight with a neighbor, the authorities were alerted and he had to answer to the authorities. He appealed and was told that his actions were against the law and he had to return to prison.

While I have a mental taboo about incest, I think that kind of action was absolutely tragic. I don't think people who consenting ADULTS should be carted off to prison. I mean, their actions give me the heebie jeebies, but jail? Cmon.

Unless there is a minor involved, I see no reason to alert the friggin' authorities here. Just because I've got issues with it doesn't mean I want to see the guy jailed and taken from his family (as strange as that family is in my mind.)

Check it out if it comes on again. Interesting piece.

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

I agree with you there. I want nothing to do with it, however they ARE adults. I don't want to see a man in a diaper asking me to spank him cause he's been a bad boy, but what happens behind closed doors, thats consentual, i don't necessarily want to see someone punished for either.

[Harlowe]

I don't think most of our society would put homosexuality in the same category as incest.

[Embar Angylwrath]

I wonder if the pull towards incest is a brain-wiring thing (genetic). I firmly beleive that most fags/dykes couldn't choose a member of the opposite sex no more than heteros could choose members of the same sex. (Bisexuals puzzle me, because ambivalence is sexual preference I don't understand).

Anyway, I wonder if there is some genetic factor that makes attraction to other organisms with a similar DNA preferable.

[Freecare Spiritwise]

I agree totally Embar, homosexuality has got to be some sort of genetic predisposition. Ask someone like my brother and he will tell you it was the way he was born. Society puts this pressure pretty much from day one for little boys to like little girls, and he says he hid it as long as he could, up until the point where he couldn't look people in the eyeballs and lie to them. He's fine with who he is now, but for a while he saw it as some sort of birth defect, some terrible curse he wouldn't wish on his worst enemy. He doesn't think it's something he chose to be, and others have told me the same. And my sister was one of the hang-with-the-boys tomboy from day one too (yeah, our family runs about 50/50 lol). She didn't like "girl stuff" like dolls and such. She was always playing in the mud and putting frogs in her pocket like the boys. One day after she graduated college I was over at her house, and commented that her neighbor was smokin' hot, and she turned to me and said "I'd do her". So my brother is like having a sister (he used to take my daughter out clothes shopping) and my sister is more like having a brother, so I figure it evens out.

Now I would put incest in a different category. I don't think anyone is born wanting to get with their brother or sister - I think that's more environment.

[Select]

Both my uncles are interesting. One says he liked men ever since he was little. His husband, my blood uncle, is different. He tried seeing women at first, but eventually moved to men and hasn't looked back at women since. One uncle feels he was born gay and (I think - haven't directly asked) the other feels he made a choice to be gay. Though a choice to go with what naturally makes you happy probably means you were born for it(?) Funny story growing up with them - I always thought of them as a pair, more than best friends, more than roommates, but I could never place my finger on it. I was disappointed seeing one at family events when the other couldn't make it. In my little kid head, they were supposed to be together. They never showed any physical affection with one another in front of the family (very private people) or said anything specific. One day, when I was about fifteen I finally had a word for it. "They're gay. Ohhhh, duh. Okay."

[Alluveal]

I wonder if the pull towards incest is a brain-wiring thing (genetic). I firmly beleive that most fags/dykes couldn't choose a member of the opposite sex no more than heteros could choose members of the same sex. (Bisexuals puzzle me, because ambivalence is sexual preference I don't understand).

Anyway, I wonder if there is some genetic factor that makes attraction to other organisms with a similar DNA preferable.

They talked about this in the BBC show. One couple (who were in their 30's, I believe,) met before they knew they were related and fell in love. Found out they were related, then tried to call it quits because of family pressure and taboo. But, they couldn't. They said that they felt the genetic bond made their romantic feelings even stronger.

[Taxious]

Lulu, I'd be interested in watching that segment. Do you recall if it was titled anything special? When I get home tonight, I'll search around for it.

As for the homosexuality stuff, I believe some people choose to be gay while others are born that way. I feel like I had a pretty stereotypical "boy" life (sports, video games, legos, etc...) until puberty when I started to notice I was attracted to other guys. I can still remember the first guy I felt attracted to, even though at the time I didn't realize what it meant. I think it came out like: "Wow Kyle, you have a nice smile man."

[Select]

"Wow Kyle, you have a nice smile man."

Ahahahaha awwww.

[Alluveal]

Here is a link:

http://www.bbcamerica.com/content/334/index.jsp

[Melba]

I think it's terribly, terribly creepy. But I wonder why I think that? Who you chose to love is not really up to you. You fall in love where you will!! I think, as long as you're not having babies with horrible malformations, and you think it's ok, then WTF. Do it. I can't imagine it will last, what with society's problems with it. And the law, etc. If my best friend married her brother, as long as I didn't know it was her brother, fine, I guess. If I did know...well...of course I'd be creeped out, but I think I'd accept it. Eventually. I'd still be creeped out, but I'd live with it. It's not my life. Oooh, tingly familial love!

Also, reading more of the posts here...I don't know if being gay is something you're born with or not. Or something you stick with. I've had lots of crushes on girls! But I'm married to man. More or less happily. For me, the pendulum swung both ways, but stuck on the boys. But that doesn't mean I don't find some girls amazing. I just fall in love with more boys. I guess, in the end, some people do chose. It's about who you find the strongest love with.

[wende darling]

I watched the show and found it very interesting. I wonder why only the brother of that couple was put in jail? I also wonder why the children would be removed from their custody. As if their falling in love is reason enough to call them bad parents? I'm fairly surprised at the outcome of their appeal.

As far as "is it something you're born with"? I have to wonder. I have always been very open here about my sexuality. My very first crush was on a boy. The next was with a girl. I was 5 years old. It was always a pretty 50/50 thing with me. I didn't persue girls until I was about 16 and only had one significant girlfriend though I had plenty of flings. I attribute that to the fact that as a very 50/50 bi girl it was just easier to date boys publicly. I could have sexual encounters with girls while having boys to meet the parents. It wasn't until fairly recently that I announced to my family that I liked girls too. Of course, at this point in my life it doesn't matter. I am happily married to a man. However, I think that if anything were to happen to Ryan, or to our relationship, I would likely persue women far more aggressively than I had in the past simply because now I am far too old to give a crap what anybody thinks. Being happy is my main goal. Getting back on track, the reason that I tend to lean more towards the "born that way" camp is this: As I said, I was 5 the first time I realized that I liked both girls and boys. I don't even know how long ago it was, 6-10 years, my grandfather filed for divorce from his second wife and got a sex change operation. A few years after that my mother called to tell me that someone contacted her and claimed to be her brother. Apparently he was born a year after she was born, he was given up for adoption because my grandparents were going through an incredibly ugly divorce. They told everybody that the baby died because it was just not acceptable to be giving a baby up for adoption back then. So this brother is the only full sibling that my mother has. He has known nothing of our family up until this point and was raised in a fairly conservative Christian home. He is gay, he and his partner have been together for 20+ years. He's never questioned his sexuality, he's always known. It's like a family trait, only there was no example of homosexuality to any of the people who are openly queer.

I think it's somewhat easier to call it a choice though. Because then it feels like it's something that we can quit if we try hard enough, like smoking, as opposed to something that we can just change temporarily, like colored contacts.