It was pretty comical watching Sean Hannity attack his own team player Dick Morris becuase Dick wouldn’t follow Hannity’s talking points after the debate. Even Morris gets honest once in a while. Dick your initial thought?
I thought Obama won the first, I thought McCain won the second. And overall since we hadn’t had a terrorist attack last week, but had the economy failing apart. The economy is more important that I have to say unfortunately I think Obama won this debate.
Is Morris hoping for a terrorist attack<snark>
I disagree, I don’t know what debate you were watching Dick and I’m going to be honest here because what was so amazing to me was everything that Sen Obama was saying, it almost seemed like it was book knowledge and that be it about the economy, be it about …it was somebody regurgitating lines and you’ve been in presidential campaigns before Dick, they were fed to him and memorized by him, but where was the real life experiences…
Sean, I’m voting for McCain. I agree with that, but Obama showed himself to be more concerned with
You didn’t answer my question.
Well I told you, I’m voting for McCain, but what I’m saying what happened in the debate, not in reality is that Obama came across as really knowing and caring about the problems of the average person. I also thought McCain blew it by not focusing on why he suspended his campaign, why he wasn’t going to go to the debate
Hannity suddenly thinks memorizing lines is a bad thing? What will he say about Sarah Palin? Oh, never mind. Once Sean says he was getting honest it kind of ruined it for me. Morris prefaces his remarks by saying that he’s voting for McCain over and over again, but then gives the debate to Obama.
Hannity didn’t like that all too much and tried to force Morris to agree with his idiotic point that Obama sure has a lot of “book knowledge.”[/b]
You could have stopped six words in, still have been totally correct, and saved electrons.
Well, it’s the Super-Monroe Doctrine: “Get off our oil, people who dress funny!” - M. Bouffant
"You're a bad captain, Zarde. People like you only learn by being touched, and hard. And you will greatly disapprove of where these men put their hands." - M. Vanderbeam.
Yes, and it allows the reader to play MadLibs. Harlowe would say joke, I would say douchebag, Kulaf would say stud. Just sayin'.
Well, it’s the Super-Monroe Doctrine: “Get off our oil, people who dress funny!” - M. Bouffant
"You're a bad captain, Zarde. People like you only learn by being touched, and hard. And you will greatly disapprove of where these men put their hands." - M. Vanderbeam.
Much has been written about McCain's mercurial temperament during the past few weeks. An election campaign that was supposed to be all about Barack Obama has turned out to be all about John McCain. In the process, the other side of the equation — Obama's steadiness throughout — has been pretty much overlooked. Just after the House shot down the bailout, Obama took to the stage in Colorado, and the contrast with McCain couldn't have been greater: "Now is not the time for fear, now is not the time for panic," he said. "We may not be able to do everything overnight...But I want you to understand, I know we can do it...Things are never smooth in Congress. It will get done."
There has been no grand cathartic moment for him in this campaign, but rather a steady accretion of trust, a growing public sense that he knows what he's talking about and isn't going to get crazy on us. His demeanor has rendered foolish all the rumors about his alleged radicalism. This guy is the furthest thing imaginable from an extremist; McCain, by his own admission, is the bomb-thrower in this race.
Obama's other great advantage was visual. He seemed, literally and figuratively, the bigger man. McCain's problem wasn't so much that he never looked at Obama; it was that he never looked at the camera. He seemed pinched, evasive, uncomfortable. Obama, by contrast, looked at both McCain and the camera. He addressed the public directly, seemed utterly confident and unflappable throughout.
The polls have McCain in free fall now. "John's advisers are sitting around, trying figure out their next Hail Mary pass," the prominent Republican told me. "But most Hail Marys aren't successful. They fall to the ground in the end zone." Sometimes a frantic heave will net a score, but you get the sense that even if McCain stages a last-minute rally, Obama will not be daunted. Under insane pressure — as brutal a year on the stump as I've ever seen — he has kept his head.
Though I think McCain's team has at least one or two more Hail Mary's in them. He's probably going to play to people with an inner racist that is afraid of black men.
There are no ties in politics; even if it is just by a fraction of an inch, someone is the winner. Though Obama received a big boost after the debate, I think that may have been because of Palin’s idiocy as of late rather than his performance. Most media outlets that I saw (and it wasn’t many at that time, due to me being away chilling with Moosen and deer for the past month) called the debate a draw
Going into this debate, I had low expectations for both candidates. Everyone knows speaking and debating is not McCain’s strong point, and I have yet to see Obama make a smooth on the spot speech or debate without a teleprompter. Hilary frequently mopped the floor with him in the primary debates, and most of his non teleprompter responses since then have had far too many “err…. Um, errr, well, uhhhs” in them. That being said, I think both performed very well, perhaps each even had their best performance in a debate yet.
I saw this debate as sort of a repeat between the Kennedy v Nixon debate of 1960. Those who heard it on the radio thought Nixon won, while those who watched it on TV though Kennedy won. I hate to compare a war hero to a vicious thieving bastard, but McCain was Nixon, and Obama was Kennedy and almost nobody listened to this debate on the radio.
McCain seemed to know more. He had more points in the typical debating sense, and was more specific. Don’t get me wrong, McCain can dance around a simple question such as “what is your favorite color?” (Blue, no, yellooooowwwww…..) just as much as any other typical politician, but he did it less than Obama here. I thought he answered the questions more directly than Obama, and used more evidence and facts. He also seemed to be the more assertive type, interrupting Obama frequently. You make take this as good or bad, but in terms of the debate, that is good. That is about the only thing he was able to do right. The rest of it (mostly perception and appearance things) he did horribly wrong.
His whole attitude was wrong. He was condescending as all hell, not even really looking at Obama the whole time and not using his name. This turns off a lot of people, specifically women (which may be the deciding factor in this election). It is disrespectful to treat a fellow nominee of a major political party that way, and people don’t like to see that. Just seeing McCain on stage at all is bad. Here you have this old, rigid, montone guy, next to the new, upbeat Obama; Old vs. New in a time where change is the coin of the realm. He sounded like he was reading from a god damned phone book the entire time. He once mentioned the “Cadillac of healthcare”. Who drives Cadillacs? Old people. He also seemed to think the public feels that the words “Earmarks” and “Pork barrel spending” are sexy and arousing. He said those words so many times. It reminded me of Rudy Gulliani, every answer was “I kicked ass on 9/11”. We get it, move on to something else.
Contrasting with McCain, you have Obama. He surprised the heck out of me with how articulate he was without the teleprompter. I don’t think he stuttered once. I think especially for Obama, this was his best debate. He seemed to dance around the questions more and was less specific, but honestly, perception is 95% of the reason people get elected. It’s a popularity contest, but the winner gets nuclear arming codes. He seemed very presidential and well prepared. I also think he may have eased the worries of many people (in the south) who feel he is “some scary black man” or he is “not like me”. He definitely appeared like one of the people and one who wants to do his best for this country. This guy is clearly the new hope and change ticket, despite McCain attempting to steal that thunder.
Obama’s biggest, and only real mistake here was saying that “The senator is right” or “I agree with the senator” on almost every question. Don’t agree with him, call him a cock juggling thunder-cunt that sleeps with goats…. figuratively at least. Make him wrong. He was also less specific than McCain, but they both danced around the first questions with the economy, unable to give a specific answer. Even when pressed by the moderator.
I give this debate a 65/35 split in favor of Obama, if you watched on TV. I think if you listened to this on the radio, McCain won, but nobody does that anymore.
Thorg Frostfist
60th Season Shaman
Lodge of the Dragon's Claw
**Retired**
Thorg Frostfist wrote:It’s a popularity contest, but the winner gets nuclear arming codes.
I got a good chuckle from that, thanks.
I thought McCain looked good - both looked presidential - but I thought Obama looked great. He looked calm, confident and relaxed, oh, and super sharp. He was even taking notes. McCain gave some good responses but he looked stiff - almost intimidated and certainly defensive. I think Obama aced the debate just by looking more presidential and cool under pressure. He came across to me as born for the job.
Looking at it purely on a surface level, I think both candidates held their own. Both stuck to their core ideology and there were no surprises there. Both made their cases well, and both looked dignified doing it.
I thought it was a decent debate, but it wasn't any different than the first debate (other than the style). No blood drawn, no big moments. They came off individually like they both always do. If you were already sold on one or the other, this certainly wasn't a game-changer, much like the first. Though I doubt there is one at this point. Undecideds - well it depends on why you were undecided. I think Obama continued to be come off as a clear-headed, calm leader and McCain did his condescending "he's just a naive whippersnapper" old salty dog I'm the experienced one routine.
A friend of mine was talking to her mother in law and she said, one thing that has always impressed her about Obama was the relationship between him and Michelle. You watch her watching him and you see his partner, an intelligent equal that is really "on board" with what he is saying. They could have been a very successful, wealthy couple and yet they chose a different path together. It feels like sincere admiration and love. What she sees with Cindy is the typical cold trophy wife. Not a warmth and partnership vibe. You've heard about the things McCain has been overheard saying to her and they were pretty nasty. You don't see warmth between the two nor respect really. She looks like someone's aging Beauty Queen with money and not much else. They were of course cheating on McCain's first wife when they originally hooked up, so it's not a great love story, it's more like a selfish business arrangement. Anyway, that has nothing to do with the election, just more of a character observation that I heard from someone else and totally saw it too, I just didn't put my finger on quite the way she did.
Michelle & Barack seem like a solid, respectful, genuinely loving partnership. It gives you a greater respect for them, like, these are good people. We haven't seen a couple like that in the White House since ....what Ronald & Nancy?
Anyway, a few comments from conservatives I follow ...
Dreher
I cannot believe that this country is in the critical condition that it's in, and these are the politicians we're asked to choose from as our next leader. Neither McCain nor Obama spoke with any credibility or seriousness about our situation. When asked what sacrifices they would ask the American people to make in light of the crisis and its likely fallout, they punted. It made me so angry! I have no use for either of those pandering mannequins.
McCain is the conservative in the race, though, and he gave no reason at all to give conservative ideas a hearing. He was at times not quite coherent, while Obama came across as smooth, warm and reassuring (even when he was talking shite). Obama won this dull, worthless "debate," for what that's worth, and he's going to win the election. Nothing McCain did tonight changed a thing. He's done. This race is now the 2008 version of Clinton vs. Dole. And you know how well that turned out for the Republicans.
The silver lining: Obama and the Democrats are going to own this godawful mess. And the conservative movement can clear the deadwood out of the way, and start to rebuild itself into a credible force.
Sullivan
This was, I think, a mauling: a devastating and possibly electorally fatal debate for McCain. Even on Russia, he sounded a little out of it. I've watched a lot of debates and participated in many. I love debate and was trained as a boy in the British system to be a debater. I debated dozens of times at Oxofrd. All I can say is that, simply on terms of substance, clarity, empathy, style and authority, this has not just been an Obama victory. It has been a wipe-out.It has been about as big a wipe-out as I can remember in a presidential debate. It reminds me of the 1992 Clinton-Perot-Bush debate. I don't really see how the McCain campaign survives this.
Suderman
Who won the debate? Tom Brokaw. He was funny. He was probing. He was fair (and balanced even!). He tried to hold the candidates to the rules on which they’d agreed.
Who lost the debate? The questioners in the room, mostly, none of whom asked a single question you couldn’t answer with a few minutes on Google.
But that’s par for the townhall format. On the other hand, we did get a better sense of the candidates’ physical presences.
Obama, as always, appeared sophistacted, urbane: He held the mic in that delicate, refined way of final-level American Idol contestants, and constantly seemed to be holding an imaginary pen in the air and trying to visualize it. He will solve America’s energy crisis with telekinesis.
McCain, on the other hand, came off as less the high-toned maverick and more the self-satisfied frat-boy goof: He started several of his answers with an Igor-via-Beavis-and-Butthead chuckle: heh-heh, heh-heh. Sorry dude, not funny.
One thing that’s clear from this debate is how little there is to John McCain and his campaign. He’s running on a few, vague issues – tax cuts, an aggressive response to Russia in specific and terrorism in general, something about energy – and a whole lot of non-policy fluff: America’s inherent strength and goodness, Obama’s inexperience, scorn for Washington insiders. But mostly, he’s running on a platform anchored by a single assumption: that John McCain is inherently, singularly qualified to lead the country, and, subsequently, deserving of the office of president. McCain views the White House as something to which he is unequivocally entitled. Beyond that, nothing else matters. Indeed, if you hold this view, nothing else would.
Obama, on the other hand, despite all the criticism and complaints that he’s running a personality cult rather than an issues-based campaign, is running a much more expansive campaign. It’s about Obama, yes, and Obama’s singular personality, but it’s also about Obama’s specific plans and proposed policies: on health care, on the environment and concerns about energy, on the economy, and on foreign policy. I don’t agree with much of what Obama proposes; he shares a fundamentally different view of how the economy works and how it should work. But the plain fact is that Obama is running a smarter, more detailed, more thoughtful and relevant campaign than McCain – and it’s showing at the polls.
I think both candidates gave a good performance, but I'd give the advantage to Obama because McCain was at a disadvantage going in, and I didn't see him come out any differently. For McCain, a push = a loss. Points for invoking Teddy Roosevelt though.
I think Obama came out on top. He certainly had a lot more energy and seemed more thoughtful in his answers. Both candidates did their share of exaggerating so I'm not gonna go into the whole "zomg liar" thing. Not the performance McCain needed to turn around the rout though. In the town hall format, Obama made him look kinda old and tired.
I was out for a while and didn't get to start watching it till a half hour in. I managed to watch 20 or 30 minutes before I got Disgusted and had to turn it off.
When a new question was asked the candidate would briefly acknowledge the question and go in to a rebuttal of what the candidate said in that previous question. And the previous question was also ignored in favor of a rebuttal.
If you look at the reputable fact check sites you will see that most of the things they fudged on were not about themselves but accusations about the other.
"I will work with congress" "I will assemble a blue ribbon panel" does not tell me what you actually want to happen. Every president works with congress to push their agenda. What is the agenda? you can assemble a panel of people who think like you and by wild coincidence they will make recommendations that match your agenda every single time. What is your agenda?
Or to quote a debate from the 80's. Where's the beef?
"A few months ago, I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and best intentions still tell me that's true, but the facts and evidence tell me it is not." - Ronald Reagan 1987
A more lively debate, but man oh man, if McCain wanted to get away from the contemptuous, bitter old man rep he's developed over the past month....yeah fail. The eye-rolling, grimacing and utter contempt you could feel through the TV was so....not commander-in-chiefish. And old, oyyyyy, he brought up Nancy's broken pelvis at the beginning, like he did Ted Kennedy the first debate - I thought, wow he's old. He's really old, because holy shit that's all old people want to talk about is their own and their buddy's/neighbor's/random acquaintance's various hospital visits and health issues. In some areas he just seemed to wander off into random-land trying to get in some talking points and at one point (I don't recall the question) it was like Tina Fey doing Palin.
Obama kept his cool as usual. Perhaps he's a cyborg from the future. Although, some of it was snooze-worthy, I'm always impressed with his demeanor. Obama really seems unflappable. It reminded me of that Youtube video of a voter talking to him, she tells him there is a spider on him - and he says in a matter-of-fact sort of way "oh is it a big one" before even looking, then casually picking it off - and it just made me chuckle.
More seriously: McCain and Obama tied on points. Maybe McCain even won on points. Solid policy answers, tough policy attacks, solid command of the facts. The first and last thirty minutes were among McCain's best .
But debates aren't usually won on points.
They're won on valence and visuals.
Emotions and body language.
And tonight, we saw a McXplosion. Every single attack that Sen. McCain has ever wanted to make, he took the opportunity tonight to make. Around 30 minutes in, McCain seemed to surrender the debate to his frustrations, making it seem as if he just wanted the free television.
His substance suffered; it didn't make sense at times. He seemed personally offended by negative ads; he tried to make a point about Obama's character, but all the sleight were those Obama allegedly inflicted on Obama: the town halls, campaign finance, negative ads, etc. He allowed himself to get caught up in his own grievances. It was just plain unattractive on television. He moved quickly from William Ayers to taxes without a transition. From Obama's opposition to trade agreements to taxes. No intermediate steps. Blizzards of words without unifying strings.
The partisans want their candidates to say things that will make the self-same partisans feel good. So when McCain gets angry, lots of Republicans say: "Right on ya! " as if persuadable voters are looking at the world through McCain's eyes and harboring the same grudges and feeling offended by the same.
I think these 20 minutes were McCain's weakest of the three debates, at a time when he could least afford it.
Ezra Klien The American Prospect
McCain looks angrier and more petulant than any participant in any major debate I've watched. Watching him try to stay seated is like watching a furious kid try and obey a timeout. He can hardly hold himself still.
Coates The Atlantic
You just heard why John McCain will lose. He pivoted from an attack on ACORN and Ayers to his campaign getting the economy back on track. Worst segue ever. The two don't line up. Ayers and ACORN don't take you to a larger campaign theme. This isn't "Swiftboating" which took you to the War on Terror. This isn't Willie Horton, which took you to crime. This isn't "States Rights" which takes you to busing and the Voting Rights Act. It's just empty demagoguery. It doesn't say anything about what is foremost in the electorate's minds.
Dreher Beliefnet
OK, that's over. And so is the McCain campaign. He was more aggressive than he's been so far, and he came close to landing some blows on Obama. But he never really connected, and for the most part this debate was as platitudinous as they all have been. McCain came off as sour, agitated and petulant. Obama -- man, nothing rattles that guy. McCain was two tics away from a vein-popping "You can't handle the truth!" Jack Nicholson moment, I felt. At one point, I thought: Which one of these men would I want in the White House when the 3 a.m. phone call comes in
Chait The New Republic
I thought John McCain was more effective and coherent tonight than in the previous two debates. He mostly controlled the terms of the debate, in part by defining the average American as a plumber who earns more than $250,000 a year. His points, though often inaccurate, were not always rebutted (in part because Obama simply didn't have time to rebut every allegation.)
However, McCain lost the overall message of the debate. The cost of McCain's sharper tone was that he sounded more like a dogmatic Republican. Obama was softer, let many points go, but was much more effective at sounding like a moderate.
I continue to think that Obama's demeanor is vastly more effective. Obama is more calm, more reasonable sounding, and can make attacks without sounding nasty, something McCain simply cannot do.
I'm with Olbermann: After that debate, I'm voting for Joe the plumber.
Well, it’s the Super-Monroe Doctrine: “Get off our oil, people who dress funny!” - M. Bouffant
"You're a bad captain, Zarde. People like you only learn by being touched, and hard. And you will greatly disapprove of where these men put their hands." - M. Vanderbeam.
Aside from that, I had to laugh when McCain said "Every time there's been an out-of-bounds remark made by a Republican, no matter where they are, I have repudiated them.. Sorry John, but bullshit.
Overall though, McCain did a better job of attacking Obama but really sounded like he was a tit-for-tat politician while Obama seemed to rise above the fray a little more. The bullshit tossing in of quips while Obama was talking made him look pretty cheap and definitely not presidential - almost like he has some bizarre inferiority complex.
Again, not a resounding victory for either side in my mind, but even a draw is a win for Obama at this point.
And WTF is up with McCain saying Palin's kid has autism, and looking into the cause? She has Downs' Syndrome, and we know the cause of that. Jeez - does he not even know the difference?
