Edwards wants a socialist state

[Embar Angylwrath]

While I think of it, you can justify your desire to take tax money from people and give it to the poor for schooling and not for health care.

The poor have access to the same hospitals as everyone else. But they are locked into failing public schools because of where they live.

[Partha]

Ah, but they don't have the same OPPORTUNITY of access that you claim is important when it comes to doling out your tax money in 'vouchers' to poor people so they can go to GOOD schools. After all, as that article pointed out, ER's are starting to become in short supply in large urban areas...

[Embar Angylwrath]

Ah, but they don't have the same OPPORTUNITY of access that you claim is important when it comes to doling out your tax money in 'vouchers' to poor people so they can go to GOOD schools. After all, as that article pointed out, ER's are starting to become in short supply in large urban areas...

Your statement makes no sense. There aren't armed guards preventing anyone from accessing any ER.. rich or poor. And if there is a dearth of ERs, that affects rich and poor alike.

[Partha]

Because, of course, rich people use the ER just as much as the poor. Riiiiight.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... 08642/pg_2

Malone (1995) describes a subgroup of ER users responsible for a disproportionate amount of ER visits and costs. Referred to as "heavy users" of the ER, this subgroup "is identified as a medically and socially vulnerable population ... [including] the mentally ill, the drug- and alcohol dependent, the poor, minorities and those with unstable family situations or without social support" (pp. 469, 470). Indeed, the literature abounds with descriptions of those who use the ER for nonurgent care: members of racial and ethnic minority groups, those of low socioeconomic status (Padgett & Brodsky, 1992), the uninsured and people on Medicaid (McNamara, Witte, & Koning, 1993; Nadel, 1993), those with low family income, adults with less than a high school education, those with welfare as a source of income, and children of single parent households (Brown & Goel, 1994). Misperceptions among the public about the costs of ER services may contribute to misuse of this service. In a cross-sectional survey of people who identified the ER as their usual source of care, O'Brien et al. (1997) identified factors, including low income, having been refused care in a clinic or office setting in the past, the perception that an ER visit costs less than a visit in an office setting, and an unwillingness to continue to use the ER if a $25 co-payment were required.

Now, I asked about this a while ago....do you REALLY want to continue the fact free ranting about lazy poor people and keep getting smacked with facts? I would hope eventually you'd get tired of being proven wrong.

[Embar Angylwrath]

You just proved my point that everyone has access to an ER.

[Partha]

Actually, one doesn't prove the other.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Actually, one doesn't prove the other.

Then why are you equating them?

[Arkaron]

Jaro, how old are you? Once you turn 24, you're considered an independent under the FAFSA rules and can obtain federal loans/grants. I was able to get independent status before I was 24 so that I could take loans that would normally have been taken out by parents put into my name. Talk to someone at financial aid at your university.

Barring that, you can knock out quite a chunk of your general ed at one class a term until you either find a better work situation or get financial aid straightened out.

[Arkaron]

identified factors, including low income, having been refused care in a clinic or office setting in the past, the perception that an ER visit costs less than a visit in an office setting, and an unwillingness to continue to use the ER if a $25 co-payment were required.

If they are using the ER for nonurgent care, that's an education problem. Fruits and veggies are NOT that expensive, even on a limited budget (hi, graduate student) you can still avoid terrible food.

Sometimes I see people who genuinely want to improve their situation, but the way members of the lower middle class act at times makes me believe that they want to remain that way. Embar isn't saying that the poor drive Lexus and BMWs while they order plasma TVs on their supercomputers at home, it's that the they don't know how to make responsible economic choices and many of them don't want to.

This is why poor kids in my classes want Nikes and iPods instead of say, school supplies or other things they might need. They believe by emmulating wealth or upper middle class style, they can somehow have it.

This is why I tell those same kids who come to me and ask if they should go to school that YES THEY SHOULD, because going to college is the ticket out of whatever Redneck Bumfuckville hell they're dealing with at home. Do well in school and GTFO of there.

[Select]

Jaro, Stafford does that a lot. Have you tried other loans? You just need decent credit, and if you don't even have that, see if a parent will co-sign it (Hopefully one of them has it) My parents will not pay for me, but they will co-sign because they know me well enough that I will shoulder all the payments once I'm out of school. I believe it's also after two years, if all payments have been met on time, that a co-signer can be released from the loan. https://www.hesaa.org/oNJCLASS/html/index.htm is what I went with. The debt sucks, but at least I'll have an education to try and do something about it while getting myself into a better situation. Do some research.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Thank you Arky.. for providing an intrepation from someone who is actually dealing first-hand with the issue. Neither Partha nor I have the perspective available to you. Its refreshing to hear it from a teacher in the public education system.

[Ddrak]

If they are using the ER for nonurgent care, that's an education problem.

Not really - it's because the insurance industry is messed up and it costs less out of the patient's pocket to go to the ER than see a GP, *especially* if they are uninsured.

Dd

[Select]

Just don't sleep with a student, Ark. We don't need to hear that from a teacher in the public education system.
<3

[Embar Angylwrath]

If they are using the ER for nonurgent care, that's an education problem.

Not really - it's because the insurance industry is messed up and it costs less out of the patient's pocket to go to the ER than see a GP, *especially* if they are uninsured.

Dd

As a point of clarification, that's the only part of Arky's post that was slightly off-base. It was a clarifying point only. There is no argument that rich and poor alike have access to ERs. She singularly shot holes in all of Patha's arguments.

[Arkaron]

Dd's right - my experience between being billed uninsured at the ER versus an 'urgent care' facility is different because Ashland is really, really fucked up.

[Partha]

As a point of clarification, that's the only part of Arky's post that was slightly off-base. It was a clarifying point only. There is no argument that rich and poor alike have access to ERs. She singularly shot holes in all of Patha's arguments.

Wait, what? Do they speak English where you come from?

From my post on ER's:

Misperceptions among the public about the costs of ER services may contribute to misuse of this service.

From Arkaron's post:

If they are using the ER for nonurgent care, that's an education problem.

Her post didn't argue with mine on that point - it actually agrees with mine.

Further, as people keep having to hammer into the uneducated, 'anecdote is not the singular of data'. I'm quite certain that a single graduate student has a different mix of income and expense than your ordinary member of what's called the 'poor'.

But let's go back to the basics of your argument. According to you, we should not spend money on 'socialized health care' because the poorest people have access to the most expensive (in taxes) and inefficient part of the system?

[Embar Angylwrath]

Learn to read, chuckles.

My argument is that we shouldn't move to a socialized medicine system because that system is flawed, too. Our system works. Could it be improved? Sure. But absent a systemic failure to provide basic healthcare, we shouldn't abandon our system just to trade for different problems.

And if you'd cut off drug/alcohol admissions to ERs, which overbuden our healthcare system because of personal lifestyle choices, you'd see ER visits drop by 30%. I don't care what anyone chooses to put in their body. I DO care when I'm asked to pay for the consequences of their lifestyle.

[Partha]

My argument is that we shouldn't move to a socialized medicine system because that system is flawed, too. Our system works. Could it be improved? Sure. But absent a systemic failure to provide basic healthcare, we shouldn't abandon our system just to trade for different problems.

If by 'works', you mean, 'spends more money for worse outcomes', sure. Of course, moving all our goods by horse-drawn carriage used to 'work', too. What you claim, BTW, as the 'systemic failure' of 'socialized medicine' - you know, the long lines, the dearth of doctors - are the same problems with the ER system that you champion as 'working' - except theirs costs less.

And if you'd cut off drug/alcohol admissions to ERs, which overbuden our healthcare system because of personal lifestyle choices, you'd see ER visits drop by 30%. I don't care what anyone chooses to put in their body. I DO care when I'm asked to pay for the consequences of their lifestyle.

\

Hey, Chuckles?

I engage in a lot of recreational activity that results in damaged bones, ligaments, tendons, etc

Next time you break a leg, stay out of my ER. Hyyyyypocrite!

[Embar Angylwrath]

My argument is that we shouldn't move to a socialized medicine system because that system is flawed, too. Our system works. Could it be improved? Sure. But absent a systemic failure to provide basic healthcare, we shouldn't abandon our system just to trade for different problems.

If by 'works', you mean, 'spends more money for worse outcomes', sure. Of course, moving all our goods by horse-drawn carriage used to 'work', too. What you claim, BTW, as the 'systemic failure' of 'socialized medicine' - you know, the long lines, the dearth of doctors - are the same problems with the ER system that you champion as 'working' - except theirs costs less.

And if you'd cut off drug/alcohol admissions to ERs, which overbuden our healthcare system because of personal lifestyle choices, you'd see ER visits drop by 30%. I don't care what anyone chooses to put in their body. I DO care when I'm asked to pay for the consequences of their lifestyle.

\

Hey, Chuckles?

I engage in a lot of recreational activity that results in damaged bones, ligaments, tendons, etc

Next time you break a leg, stay out of my ER. Hyyyyypocrite!

Where's the hypocrisy? I pay for my visits since I carry insurance on myself. I really don't know what you're bitching about. I pay may own way, and because of my tax bracket, I pay a higher percentage of the cost of the ER visits made by those that don't carry insurance. Meaning.. I get shafted more than 95% of the US population.

[Partha]

But you're talking about cutting off ER services to patients regardless of their means to pay based on 'lifestyle choices'.

Or do you believe that ER services should only be cut off to the poor?