TSA Epic Fails

[Embar Angylwrath]

I am not aware of a case where a weapon wielding passenger has been successfully subdued by other passengers. Sure when its just some loud mouth drunk, it is easy to stand up and help, but when you are in actual danger?

You work for the TSA and are unaware of Richard Reid? Passengers swarmed that guy when they saw him trying to blow up the plane. Turns out even if they hadn't, he would have failed, but they didn't know that at the time.

There's Alaska flight 259, and that even happened pre-911.

Fuck, I can do more damage with a neck-tie than I can with a pen knife or a souvenir bat.

[Embar Angylwrath]

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/conf ... VGzfypjnLO

Ex-TSA worker weighs in on the dumboobery that is the TSA. (I think this is the same guy that has a blog on the subjecyt, the "chewing gum" comments are too specific for it to be someone else).

Im curious Tora - did you take the job at TSA because you thought it would be a good career move? Or was it a choice of necessity?

[Torakus]

I am not aware of a case where a weapon wielding passenger has been successfully subdued by other passengers. Sure when its just some loud mouth drunk, it is easy to stand up and help, but when you are in actual danger?

You work for the TSA and are unaware of Richard Reid? Passengers swarmed that guy when they saw him trying to blow up the plane. Turns out even if they hadn't, he would have failed, but they didn't know that at the time.

There's Alaska flight 259, and that even happened pre-911.

Fuck, I can do more damage with a neck-tie than I can with a pen knife or a souvenir bat.

OK so a guy lighting matches and a guy mumbling incoherently? These are you examples of passengers wielding weapons? I think you might be using the same dictionary as Fallakin.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/conf ... VGzfypjnLO

Ex-TSA worker weighs in on the dumboobery that is the TSA. (I think this is the same guy that has a blog on the subjecyt, the "chewing gum" comments are too specific for it to be someone else).

Im curious Tora - did you take the job at TSA because you thought it would be a good career move? Or was it a choice of necessity?

You think a disgruntled employee is a good source of information?

Actually taking the job I have (which is not in screening) at TSA was a good career move. I was already employed and had several other offers on the table.

What I am curious about is who at TSA pissed in your cornflakes? Tell us the real story, because your deeply personal attacks on these screeners speaks of something much deeper than your politics.

Tora

[Embar Angylwrath]

Read his blog. He's pretty fair, and his logic makes a lot of sense. Disgruntled and not willing to drink the kool-aid are not the same. He's calling them like he sees them. He defended the TSA's decision to allow blades on the plane. Why not, since you guys allow 6 inch scissors? And I agree. Its a good decision. A 2 inch blade will not take down a plane. Nor will a 5 inch blade. Nor will a couple of samurai swords. Or a machete. Its not the TSA's responsibility to ensure the safety of passengers and crew. Its their responsibility to prevent a jet from being used as a terrorist's tool.

As to your other comment. As I've noted before, most of my interactions with TSA have been with people that are relatively sane and are just trying to get through their day. But just because I've had little issue with my interpersonal interactions with various TSA employees doesn't mean I think it isn't a huge waste of time and security theater.

As I posted before.. your attitude seems to be "Hell, its only a little freedom we're taking from you, so quit your bitching"

And as a side note...and this is just me...if I had a resume come across my desk that said the person applying for a position actually choose to be a part of the TSA, that would say one of a few things to me. The person is an idiot, or a sycophant trying to climb the government ladder and is using the TSA as a stepping stone, or was in a position where they needed the work and had very few other choices. I'd be able to look past the last, but not the first two.

I think you and I are of the same age range, so perhaps this is your last or second to last position in the gub'ment. Either way, you need to know your entire department was born out of an irrational reaction to an eventuality, incorporating the irrationality from which it was birthed into its very structure. You and I both know its viewed as a joke in security circles. Precisely because it doesn't do anything for security. Need we go into the failure rate of security challenges by auditors? Newark anyone?

Face it brother. Your department is just about as effective at security as a net is at holding water.

[Harlowe]

I can't imagine having TSA on your resume is going to make you stand out in any positive way.

[Freecare Spiritwise]

As a collector of sharp objects, I think it's a step in the right direction by allowing small pocket knives on a plane.

But we all know it's just security theatre going on, and I don't see that ultimately changing. The TSA is a massive and unaccountable, reactionary bureaucratic agency. It's actions are designed to make us perceive that we are safe, not to keep us safe. Its real purpose is self-perpetuation. The TSA exists to be funded.

[Ddrak]

I think the dysfunction in the TSA is more a result of external pressures than internal competencies.

Dd

[Embar Angylwrath]

Perhaps Dd, but that's the result of an irrational response to something that was bound to eventually happen.

Now the TSA is caught in an untenable position that drives some of their idiotic policies. They have to pretend what they are doing is effective and keep up the charade in order to preserve what little reputation they have. For instance: They are harrassing train riders now, because occasionally a terrorist does something crazy in Europe on the train system, and its just a matter of time before it happens here. By harassing the riders now, they can say "well, we did our best" when the media hits them with "Where were you assholes and why didn't you catch the badguy."

I notice Tora dodged the questions about the APC purchases and the 1.5 billion rounds of ammo purchased by DHS. To put that in perspective, that's the same amount of ammo needed to wage an Iraq-style war, for 20 years.

[Freecare Spiritwise]

I think the dysfunction in the TSA is more a result of external pressures than internal competencies.

My thought is that its dysfunction is more of a result of it not really being accountable. It's dysfunctional because it's not required to be functional. I'm not sure it feels many external pressures.

[Embar Angylwrath]

The external pressures it faces are funding-related. They have to keep up the fallacy in order to get funding. They have to pretend they are effective, when their own metrcis show they aren't. (There's a reason why they quit publishing failure rates on challenges... they were't getting any better and the failure rate was terrible).


But hell, if the American public isn't outraged that our "last line of defense" (/bullshit) is a bunch of dumbshits collected by an agency designed to let good people go and keep the 'tards, and the TSA is an agency that has tied itself in knots over contradictory policies and procedures, is an agency that has an ever increasing budget even though it isn't effective at all, then the American public deserves to get felt up, harassed, and snared in the smoke and mirrors sideshow that is the TSA.

[Freecare Spiritwise]

Here's an article I read today that speaks to their unaccountability:

I may routinely question whether our senators are competent, but treating them like terrorists is a stretch.

Senator Tweets About 'Very Uncomfortable' TSA Pat Down: 'OMG'

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201303 ... -omg.shtml

I still can't forget the TSA threatening to arrest my extremely disabled stepdaughter. She has the mental capacity of a 6 month old at age 26. She's not really aware of her surroundings. She "refused" to follow their verbal instructions so they pulled us all over to the side for special treatment. The TSA stuck their hands down her diaper and she bit one of 'em lol. They then started threatening to arrest her even when it was clear they were dealing with a 26 year old baby. My wife flipped out and started dialing the local police before they got a supervisor over. They didn't even call a supervisor over until I spouted out something like "wow, the local news is going to love this" and the agent looked at his buddy and said "yeeeahhhh, we better get a supervisor."

Now it's a 20 hour drive to see her.

[Ddrak]

...then the next terrorist pretends to be a 26yr old with the mental capacity of a 6 month old, and uses the diaper to hide a bomb. TSA then gets it in the neck.

Unrealistic expectations.

Dd

[Freecare Spiritwise]

...then the next terrorist pretends to be a 26yr old with the mental capacity of a 6 month old, and uses the diaper to hide a bomb. TSA then gets it in the neck.

We didn't say a word over any of it until they went to put her in cuffs, which I hope no one here is suggesting was appropriate. The supervisor (which was very cool BTW) certainly didn't think so, and apologized profusely. He told us the agents weren't trained for that kind of stuff, and believe me we understand that. Anyone with a disabled child does. But their very first reaction to a situation that was outside of their comfort zone was threatening to put us all in jail. I can definitively say that the TSA did not earn any supporters that day within that small area of bystanders.

But you hit on an important point. It does appear unrealistic to expect anyone to be treated with dignity if they have to fly somewhere. And it would be one thing if we all gave up our dignity in the name of security. But honestly, now we just don't have either. What did giving up our collective dignity gain us?

They can't be accountable or the terrorists win. They can't be transparent about the process or the terrorists win. They can't act like human beings to the people they're supposed to be protecting, or they'll be somehow tricked, and the terrorists win. It's all pretty fucking convenient. And anyone who is ever tried to sue them for some of their horrible behavior has been hit with national security type gag letters and boom, the criticism against them magically goes away. Because if you criticize any of their poor behavior, yep, the terrorists win.

And I'm not even against having a TSA. I just want them to be accountable to the people and as transparent as humanly possible in its operation. This is America. We're Americans. We're supposed to all be on the same fuckin' team. The TSA is supposed to be protecting us, not treating us like terrorists. I say fire the bottom half of their screeners and spend that money on more sky marshals. I want to know I'm on the plane with guys that can take a motherfucker out if there's trouble, and not harm any friendlies. Put a Navy Seal on every plane, maybe even in uniform.

[Torakus]

I notice Tora dodged the questions about the APC purchases and the 1.5 billion rounds of ammo purchased by DHS. To put that in perspective, that's the same amount of ammo needed to wage an Iraq-style war, for 20 years.

I am pretty sure DHS did not buy any MRAPs (not APC), check your source. DHS has a contract with a company to install new chassis on 2700 MRAPs that would otherwise be among the 12,000 or so that the Army is putting into storage and eventually scrapping for the JTLV in 3 years. DHS / FEMA have been using MRAPS for several years now and since they are essentially down armoring them from their current mine resistant state with a lighter chassis, I am at a loss to what you conspiracy nuts are worried about. They are essentially a cheap SWAT truck for DHS. God forbid we save some fucking money on the deal.

DHS as an agency is responsible for procurement of ammunition for duty and training for over 45,000 CBP agents and officers, 15,000+ ICE agents, the entire U.S. Coast Guard, the Secret Service, TSA, Federal Air Marshalls, Federal Protective Service officers, and the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. Nor is this a one year procurement. It is a multi-year procurement. I think the yearly total on the contract comes in at about 320 million rounds, or something like 2,500ish rounds for both training and duty for all of the armed officers, agents and puddle pirates. It is actually quite a little less when you consider the DHS FLETC and ranges that train LEOs from all federal branches and some state and local as well, all pulling from that same pool of ammunition.

Also you might want to fact check that 20 year Iraq-style war claim. That would mean that the Army was only expending around 6,000,000 rounds per month at the height of the war. That then begs the question why the U.S. Army small arms ammo orders topped 1.5 billion in 2006 (having risen steadily to that point since 2000 levels of just under 500,000,000 per year).

The external pressures it faces are funding-related. They have to keep up the fallacy in order to get funding. They have to pretend they are effective, when their own metrcis show they aren't. (There's a reason why they quit publishing failure rates on challenges... they were't getting any better and the failure rate was terrible).

TSA doesn't have funding issues. TSA's budget over the last 10 years is less than what we spend on the Food Stamps program EVERY year. The reason for not publishing failure rates has jack shit to do with funding. TSA doesn't post them because they don't want to encourage would be terrorists. "Look Achmed, you have a 2 in 10 chance of getting your shoe bomb through the WTMD. Come on, all the cool terrorists are trying it!". The failure rate 5 years ago was terrible. A great deal has changed in those five years in detection training and technology.

I may routinely question whether our senators are competent, but treating them like terrorists is a stretch.

So you think we should treat them differently because they are politicians? Fuck that. I am not required to go through screening every time I go to an airport to do my job, but I do it anyway. She wasn't being treated like a terrorist she was receiving the required screening for her hands alarming for nitrates.

I still can't forget the TSA threatening to arrest my extremely disabled stepdaughter

I don't know when this happened, but TSA cannot arrest anyone. TSA does not have law enforcement powers. If they are unable to control a passenger they are required to call local law enforcement. In larger airports TSA pays the local police department for the presence of uniformed LEOs, in smaller airports that isn't always possible.

We didn't say a word over any of it until they went to put her in cuffs, which I hope no one here is suggesting was appropriate.

As I said TSA does not have law enforcement powers and no TSA screeners even have handcuffs. A TSA screener isn't even allowed to detain you if you decide to just walk through screening and tell them to shove it up their ass. The LEO who tackles you 30 seconds later and hauls you off to jail does though. It is quite possible that you were mistaken as to who handcuffed her as was the case when a woman at Fort Lauderdale claimed that TSA cuffed her to a chair. This happens quite a bit and is a good reason that screeners shouldn't wear badges and police style uniforms.

I say fire the bottom half of their screeners and spend that money on more sky marshals.

They are actually called Federal Air Marshals not sky marshals, but that would be a hell of a budget jump and you still wouldn't be able to put a Marshal on all 30,000 domestic flights each day, forget putting them on all flights, and then when would they get a day off. Besides what do the other 26,000 screeners do? Wait times already suck at some airports, take away half the screeners and see if it gets better.

Tora

[Freecare Spiritwise]

They didn't cuff her, but they started to lead her away and said "we're going to have her cuffed for our own safety" or something like that. The local police did show up pretty quickly and basically called the two screeners we were having a problem with idiots. But they did threaten to arrest her. And they did threaten to cuff her. It was a very traumatizing experience that shouldn't have happened had we been dealing with an agency which gives two shits about the people it's protecting. You might as well have the IRS handle airline security. We had our dignity taken away for the sake of security theater.

And it's not like I don't know several people with similar, humiliating tales. These days I fly only when I absolutely can't weasel out of it, and I know quite a few people who feel the same way.

The experience did have a couple positive moments though. In the blink of an eye we went from being treated like terrorists to all these people standing up for us, including cops and bystanders. But that doesn't justify our treatment or undo it.

[Ddrak]

This happens quite a bit and is a good reason that screeners shouldn't wear badges and police style uniforms.

You know, I bet you'd get a LOT better reaction if the screeners were dressed in a suit and tie rather than a police-style uniform. Make them look, as much as possible, like someone doing you a service rather than someone in authority. Require the same sort of personal presentation as a high class restaurant to make the whole thing less intimidating.

TSA doesn't post them because they don't want to encourage would be terrorists. "Look Achmed, you have a 2 in 10 chance of getting your shoe bomb through the WTMD. Come on, all the cool terrorists are trying it!". The failure rate 5 years ago was terrible. A great deal has changed in those five years in detection training and technology.

My understanding from literature (ie teh interwebz) was terrorists tended to be significantly risk averse? They'd need to believe a 95% or better chance to even bother trying. Not that my sources are completely jusifiable, of course.

She wasn't being treated like a terrorist she was receiving the required screening for her hands alarming for nitrates.

Imagine what would happen if her hands came up positive for opiates entering the country?

Besides what do the other 26,000 screeners do? Wait times already suck at some airports, take away half the screeners and see if it gets better.

Targetted and random sampling, rather than 100% screening? Just suggesting... I can't see it happening either.

Dd

[Torakus]

Imagine what would happen if her hands came up positive for opiates entering the country?

She would probably be detained by ICE and her bags searched.

Targetted and random sampling, rather than 100% screening? Just suggesting... I can't see it happening either.

I wouldn't have any problem with that. In fact I have been a fan of that from the beginning, but then the anti-profiling crowd will lose their minds.

They didn't cuff her, but they started to lead her away and said "we're going to have her cuffed for our own safety" or something like that.

I always get outraged about what people say they are going to do, but end up not doing. You had a very emotional reaction to your step-daughter being screened, not treated like a terrorist. What do you suggest the screener do when bitten by someone? Regardless of the person's mental capacity, biting is a very violent reaction. Should they have just said, "Oh how sweet, you folks should just move on without being screened."

I do feel bad that you and your child feel traumatized by the event, but a little planning ahead on your part could have avoided the entire scenario. TSA is very accommodating with disabled passengers if they know about them ahead of time. You can ask to speak with the checkpoint supervisor before you even queue up and advise them that your passenger has special screening needs and warn them of any potential "bad touch" spots or actions that may provoke a response. The screeners will work with you and make the screening process bearable if not pleasant. But you have to work with them. It sounds to me like you had your mind made up to not meet the screeners halfway even before your experience.

Tora

[Freecare Spiritwise]

The airport was notified prior to our arrival. She was even wheeled up to the checkpoint in an airline owned wheelchair, pushed by an airline employee, who even tried to explain the situation himself. At the first part of the checkpoint, where you show ID, the TSA agent was notified by us of her condition and propensity to bite people who were aggressive towards her. This agent waived us on through without telling the other screeners. We did everything we were supposed to do, and for the most part everyone was very accommodating, except for those two screeners, who for whatever reason chose to disregard what everyone was telling them and bark orders at her like she understood what the fuck they were saying. I won't post her picture, but let's just say that you'd see from across the airport that she had no mental capacity. You have to almost be her level of mentally incapacitated not to see how mentally incapacitated she was.

It's funny, the two asshole screeners asked us why we didn't just restrain her. The group home she's in used to periodically restrain her, but the state of California took them to court and said it violated her rights as an adult American. We're not allowed to legally restrain her for any purpose whatsoever. All we can do is explain it to folks ahead of time. We've taken her on numerous car outings without incident. People at restuarants, hotels, resorts, stores and other public places are usually more gracious than we could ever ask for. I've seen cops stop traffic for her, and random strangers help her. But she's only ever been threatened with arrest once, and that was by the TSA.

Look, I understand that we presented a very challenging situation to the TSA. But we went out of our way to make the experience as pleasant and smooth as possible to those we knew we would have to deal with. We didn't commit any crime, and our daughter didn't commit any crime. We did everything by the book. We didn't deserve the treatment we got. I don't know how often you get threatened with jail time on your family vacation, but we didn't really appreciate it, and it didn't give us a whole lot of respect for what's pretty much a universally despised government agency.

And I'll go on the record and say it's wholly unsurprising that an employee for said universally-despised agency would try to minimize their involvement without having direct knowledge of the situation. This is the point I was trying to make all along in this thread.

If this were a company I worked for, and you were here saying that the company mistreated you in any way, I would be the first to apologize on behalf of my company. I would have the president on the phone, and I'd be here typing his apology. This would probably be done within a matter of minutes, and I would assume your version of the truth while I looked into it, apologizing every step of the way. But there's a key difference. My company is accountable both to the law and to the clients who pay our bills. If we treated our clients the way the TSA did, we'd be out of fucking business, pure and simple.

I'm probably making it sound like it's more of a big deal in my mind than it really is. This was about 10 minutes of my life several years ago. I didn't have a very positive opinion of the TSA before this happened, and since it happened we avoid flying if at all possible.

So yeah, I'm not carrying around some emotional baggage or losing sleep over it. It was just a fucked up situation that I think typifies the point I was trying to make about this seemingly completely unaccountable government agency, who also seems to have little regard for the people who I assume that it is sworn to protect. I think I made my point decently.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Look, I understand that we presented a very challenging situation to the TSA.

And there you have the crux of your post, and the nexus of all that is inherently wrong with the TSA.

No, you didn't present a very challenging situation to the TSA. You presented a situation that could be reasonably anticipated by an agency that is tasked with screening all manner of individuals. Notice the cops and others acted with reason. Not so the TSA. They reacted with SOPs, filtered through the brain matter of idiots, who don't even know the SOPs and if they do, construe them to tilt in the most ego-enforcing authoritative manner possible.

Cartman... /you WILL respect my AUTHORITAAAAY

And we are getting far from the path here. Let's not lose sight that our "last line of defense" is staffed by people that can't get jobs anywhere else. Or who actually want to work for a sham organization, and therefore, by definition, are self-deluded idiots. Sorry Tora, gotta call them like I see them. Can't believe someone who I thought had some modicum of intelligence would ever want to work for the TSA, unless ass-licking was in that person's genes or that person had no other choice to put food on the table.

So let's get this straight. The TSA is staffed mostly by otherwise unemployable people, or people who are desperate and can't wait to elevate themselves out of the position, or true believers (/shudder). Does that "last line of defense" make you feel safe? Someone who can't supersize my fries is empowered with the safety of the skies. Really? McDonald's and Walmart have better training than the TSA, and if they can't work at McDonald's and Walmart, we put them in the position of catching a terrorist?

Look at the turn over rate for evidence in fact. It's staffed by career government shitheads at the top, sycophants in middle management, and transition employees (those that have to take the job because of employment circumstances) and those that are simply unemployable elsewhere because their GED and criminal record don't qualify them for much. (Think I'm joking about that? Do a Google)

Want more education? Talk to one of the screeners. Seriously, talk to one of them. Nice people for the most part, but fucking ignorant as a pile of rocks. Ask them about the difference between Sunnis and Shias and ask them why they want to commit jihad against one another and why factions of both want to commit jihad against the US. Ask them why a several 3 oz piles of paste in a person's carry-on can't be combined to form a 16 oz charge of HE, especially if there are several coordinated people on the flight.

Want to really spook them? Ask them why, if my 10 oz gel might be an explosive, they are tossing it a bin next to all the passengers and screeners.

[Torakus]

And I'll go on the record and say it's wholly unsurprising that an employee for said universally-despised agency would try to minimize their involvement without having direct knowledge of the situation. This is the point I was trying to make all along in this thread.

I still don't get your point. Most of your post claim that you hate TSA because it is not accountable to anyone. Fortunately you are wrong. TSA is taken to task constantly by your elected representatives. Administrator Pistole is about the only federal administrative unit leader in the executive who can't even piss without passing it by Congress first. Nobody in the executive branch is more micro-managed than TSA.

If this were a company I worked for, and you were here saying that the company mistreated you in any way, I would be the first to apologize on behalf of my company. I would have the president on the phone, and I'd be here typing his apology. This would probably be done within a matter of minutes, and I would assume your version of the truth while I looked into it, apologizing every step of the way. But there's a key difference. My company is accountable both to the law and to the clients who pay our bills. If we treated our clients the way the TSA did, we'd be out of fucking business, pure and simple.

Is this you suggesting that I should apologize to you because you feel TSA mistreated you?

The airport was notified prior to our arrival.

The airport =! the air carrier =! porter contractor =! TSA =! LEO There are a lot of moving parts at an airport. Don't blame TSA because the air carrier and porter didn't follow the appropriate procedures and address the screening directly to the STSO (supervisory screening officer) at the checkpoint, but rather just talked to the TDC (travel document checker). The TDC is the position that screeners are often placed at when they are not certified on checkpoint screening or are on restricted duty; not even close to the right person to ask anything. And the airport and air carrier and porter employees all know this. They also are not allowed to leave their position for any reason unless relieved by their supervisor.

without having direct knowledge of the situation.

Post the date and airport and I can get direct knowledge if there was an incident report and my guess is if a screener was bitten then there was one.

http://www.tsa.gov/traveler-information ... conditions

The page might not have been there when you flew since you say several years ago, but perhaps you might take a look. TSA learns from events like yours and adapts.

Perhaps your side of the story is all 100% true and not influenced by emotion and these screeners were enormous douche bags. Maybe some of the other accounts out there are true as well and those were douche bags too. Fortunately even if that is the case they represent a tiny tiny portion of the screening force. A great number of our screeners and managers go out of their way to make it easier for people in you exact situation and it happens hundreds of times each day.

TSA has some damn fine employees. The first e-mail I got today was about a TSA employee in Florida who risked his life this morning to pull a lady out of her burning car that she slammed into a tree at high speed. The funny thing is, I get one of these e-mails every week and then come here and listen to Embar tell me these folks couldn't even get a job at McDonalds.