Insanity

[Partha]

Because, of course, no businesses skate the law involving safety violations ever. No sir.

[Partha]

I wish I had the answer to that, I have no idea how we would have unions for some jobs and not for others. I just cringe every time a union causes more problems and expense than it does good for the company or employee. Honestly, I would hate to be an employer in a unionized business. Esh, talk about having your nuts in a vice while your hands are behind your back.

Employers in unionized businesses have no problems making profits. Furthermore, many of the complaints here are about teachers, who don't make nearly what one would call a 'fair wage' for the job they do.

I'll quote someone else elsewhere, it sounds pretty much like the arguments here boiled down.

I personally hate labor unions because people in labor unions are well paid, have job protections beyond staying in your boss's good graces, Don't have to be related to someone to get a promotion, and get far better benefits and healthcare coverage than I personally do. There should be a national Eliot-based maximum wage so nobody gets more than me, because that's unfair.

I also read somewhere that union people never have to work at all, they just stay home, and get paid $75 an hour. They also can't be fired for any reason.

Also they kill companies, once a company has a union, they're destined to fail. Imagine what America would be like if Chevron, AT&T, Exxon, UPS, GE, IBM, most hospitals, most schools(teachers- now THAT's an overpaid group), just about every media outlet, and almost every mine in the country hadn't gone out of business years ago.

Unions are no longer needed, I know my employer won't outsource my job the moment they find someone in Vanuatu that will do it for 5% less, They'll treat me fairly if I become disabled and there are a million ways not to, and when I retire they will decide to pay out my retirement payments, even though they no longer have a legal obligation to, because it's the fair thing to do.

[Partha]

Weirdest double post I've ever seen. Huh.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Because, of course, no businesses skate the law involving safety violations ever. No sir.

The operative words there are "the law", which exists regardless of a union presence in the workplace. Don't conflate OSHA and unions.

[Ddrak]

I guess I just don't believe that workers that are not in physically dangerous positions need unions. I think they are an outdated concept for anything but dangerous jobs. I just don't think workers should be able to hold employers hostage and I think often these companies have a hell of a hard time getting rid of bad employees, which benefits no one.

There are no guarantees for most of us out in the workplace, we work hard to either keep our jobs or get that promotion or experience to market to another company. I don't see teachers as (or any other white-collar type worker) someone in a position that needs union guidos. They get in the way of progress imo.

I disagree. I think Unions are a perfectly acceptable way of employees banding together for their own protection, and notionally the protection of the business if needs be. I see no reason for anything other than the freedom to form a union to be codified in law, but the employees certainly have the right to all threaten to stop work (and face sacking) together in order to make their point. The employer then has the right to either sack everyone and face the inevitable cost of employing an entire new workforce, or meeting the employees at the bargaining table.

Unions are more necessary in cases were there is a single employer for your skills, which means you don't have a realistic means of controlling your future as the option of moving your skills to another company doesn't exist. Teachers do somewhat fit into this category (it's not so easy to move to a different state, for example).

Where I disagree with Unions is when they become so powerful they hold more than a single workplace hostage for the sins of a particular employer. That sort of behavior makes me think it's time for some good old fashioned union busting.

Dd

[Embar Angylwrath]

I guess I just don't believe that workers that are not in physically dangerous positions need unions. I think they are an outdated concept for anything but dangerous jobs. I just don't think workers should be able to hold employers hostage and I think often these companies have a hell of a hard time getting rid of bad employees, which benefits no one.

There are no guarantees for most of us out in the workplace, we work hard to either keep our jobs or get that promotion or experience to market to another company. I don't see teachers as (or any other white-collar type worker) someone in a position that needs union guidos. They get in the way of progress imo.

I disagree. I think Unions are a perfectly acceptable way of employees banding together for their own protection, and notionally the protection of the business if needs be. I see no reason for anything other than the freedom to form a union to be codified in law, but the employees certainly have the right to all threaten to stop work (and face sacking) together in order to make their point. The employer then has the right to either sack everyone and face the inevitable cost of employing an entire new workforce, or meeting the employees at the bargaining table.

Unions are more necessary in cases were there is a single employer for your skills, which means you don't have a realistic means of controlling your future as the option of moving your skills to another company doesn't exist. Teachers do somewhat fit into this category (it's not so easy to move to a different state, for example).

Where I disagree with Unions is when they become so powerful they hold more than a single workplace hostage for the sins of a particular employer. That sort of behavior makes me think it's time for some good old fashioned union busting.

Dd

Teachers really don't fit your descriptions. There are 100s of schools in metro area, each one a possible employer. Sure, maybe if you're a teacher in Bumfuck Alasaka, but then I would think your competition for the job is low there too.

[Ddrak]

Teachers really don't fit your descriptions. There are 100s of schools in metro area, each one a possible employer. Sure, maybe if you're a teacher in Bumfuck Alasaka, but then I would think your competition for the job is low there too.

Teachers here are obviously different then. Over here, teachers are state employees. I take it that isn't the case there then?

Dd

[Lurker]

They essentially are, and the 100's of schools Embar talks about are likely part of the same District. He's fudging facts to support his conclusions like he did with the AT&T / Boeing example.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Teachers really don't fit your descriptions. There are 100s of schools in metro area, each one a possible employer. Sure, maybe if you're a teacher in Bumfuck Alasaka, but then I would think your competition for the job is low there too.

Teachers here are obviously different then. Over here, teachers are state employees. I take it that isn't the case there then?

Dd

Teachers are NOT state employees. They are employees of a school, which is part of a district. And in larger metro areas, there can be several districts. For example, in the county of San Diego (where I live) we have San Diego Unified, Poway, Solana Beach, Del Mar, Encinitas and a slew of others, all within 15 miles of one another. Each a separate entity, each responsible for hiring their own teachers. Prinicpals at each school make the hiring decisions based on the needs of the school.

Lurker is dead wrong on this.

[Lurker]

Embar is right that San Diego County has a lot of seperate school districts; over 40 of them spread over a rather large area. Some are smaller than a few hundred students, some around 5000. The big ones are Poway at 33,000 and San Diego Unified at around 133,000.

[Embar Angylwrath]

San Diego Unified has over 200 schools in it. That's 200 opportunities for employment, as long as you're not a child molester or felon. I really don't see that as limited number of employment opportunities as Lurker is suggesting. And that doesn't even begin to address the other school districts, or the private schools.