Sorry Romney

[Ddrak]

Don't misunderstand my "salvation by grace alone" statement to mean that once saved you aren't going to run around doing good works. That is in essence the nature of repentance - that you don't want to go out and keep doing wrong. The salvation itself is by grace but the nature of the salvation results in works.

If someone claims to have salvation by grace and still runs around murdering people then I'd consider it pretty decent evidence that they were deluding themselves. You turn up and say "Yep, I did all those bad things, broke all those commandents(especially this on, it was my favorite), oh yeah I did that too... Um...., I'm sorry... Forgive me all my transgressions, my Lord and Savior!! Gate is over here you said??", God's gonna say "Yeah, sorry my ass - slide to hell is over here".

I'm 3lekt of Fift33n (whatever that is)according to the title under my name up there

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_rite

[Fetten]

My statement wasn't really pointed to anyone in particular but more generally.
I don't feel that Grace and Works are really as inclusive as you might feel. I don't think that if you get one you get the other by by association. Like I tried to explain, God wants you to go out and help spread the word for others to hear so they can make their choice. The Apostles did this. They heard and understood, accepted unwaveringly Christ, lived by his teachings and example and went to the people. I'm not saying that we must live our lives as the apostles did. I'm just saying that you are saved not only by grace but through works as well and the works are not something given to you just because you have accepted Christ. You actually have to make a continuing effort. I tried to find some examples of referrences that mentioned works but I didn't have much luck. If I find them I'll post them

I'm 3lekt of Fift33n (whatever that is)according to the title under my name up there

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_rite[/quote]
Not sure how i got it unless it's just a default you have setup but I dig it! The whole subject is intriguing me.

[Ddrak]

Not sure how i got it unless it's just a default you have setup but I dig it! The whole subject is intriguing me.

Yep - they are the defaults by post count.

Dd

[Kulaf]

ask yourself one question.........why did evolution/natural selection place within all humanity the idea of god?

Thanks for pitching us a softball.
Picture a time before even the most fundamental laws of science were understood. You have only your own observations of the world around you with which to make any sense of world around you. One of the first things you can deduce empirically is cause and effect. When you bang on the rock, the rock breaks. Thus you understand that when something happens it is because it is made to happen. The rock breaks because you bang on it. You made it break. So why do other things happen? The easiest answer is because someone is making them happen. Someone is making the sun rise, cross the sky and fall, only to rise again the next day.

And until Isaac Newton gave us the laws of motion in 1687 the simplest answer was that someone was turning the sun around the sky. And the same goes for everything that was once a mystery to mankind. We do not understand why something happens. There must be a cause. That cause is God. God makes the seasons change. God makes the rain.

Make the arguement to me as to why metaphysical thinking was a trait that would be passed on through natural selection. Yes it could have happened just the way you state. I could make the arguement however that we could have all been the most logical of species and never looked outside the bounds of our own existance to expalin the real world though. What made metaphysical thinking a trait that humanity passed on?

[Embar Angylwrath]

What made metaphysical thinking a trait that humanity passed on?

From an evolutionary standpoint, it works like this.

Unexplainable phenomena = increased chance of death

Metaphysical thought = additional caution of unexplainable phenomena through the process of trying to understand unexplained phenomena

Additional caution = less death

Less death = greater chance of passing on genes that code for the ability to form metaphysical thought.

Pretty easy to see how natural selection would prefer a trait to temper exploration of unknown phenomena.

[Partha]

It could be merely that connecting a certain number of neurons together gives one a 'soul'.

[Trollbait]

I am astounded that such a fundamental tenet as Salvation by Grace is misunderstood here by those who are claiming knowledge.


Jesus said:

7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. -Matthew 7:7

This is not in reference to material things. It is a reference to Salvation. Asking for Salvation is the way to receive it.

If you wish to say that works will grant you Salvation then you believe in Salvation based on merit. But scripture is clear that no person has enough or can earn enough merit to be considered worthy.

20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. 27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.-Romans 3:20-28

This passage goes on to clarify as I have tried to do unsucessfully:

31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.-Romans 3:31

What this means is that when we are truly saved by His Grace we are bound to the law and we will follow the law and commit good works in His name. The Salvation does not come from the good works, rather the good works stem from true Salvation. This does not mean you will automatically commit good works and automatically follow the law. As a good child of God you must work at it.

As to holding Peter above Paul, Arathena....I think it is a bad idea to disregard one Apostle in favor of another. Did not Peter himself say:

15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. -2 Peter 3:15-16

Apparently Peter was in agreement with Paul's letters.

Back to the main point, Peter (Whom Arathena would rather listen to anyway) says "Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation". This means that it is God's forbearance that means our Salvation. Not our deeds. Peter goes on to say that Paul writes the same way in all his letters. And if you go back and read the quotes from Paul again you will see that he is very adamant about Salvation being through God's Grace alone. And here we have Peter backing him up on that point.

So we go back to what Paul wrote in his letter to Ephesians:

4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.-Ephesians 2:4-9

And there we have, at the very end, a short passage saying that we are created in Christ to do good works. So Salvation by Grace does not exclude the need for every Christian to do good works. But good works cannot save you. Indeed you must be saved through the Grace of God before your good works will mean anything at all and more than that doing good works will not mean you will be more saved that you were before. Saved is Saved. But once Saved a truly Saved person will make every attempt to be the best Christian they can be. They will show their Salvation in word and deed.

[Klast Brell]

What made metaphysical thinking a trait that humanity passed on?

First can you define metaphysical thinking? I'm not sure what that means to you personally. When you get in to terms like this everyone has their own interpretation and I want to make sure I understand what you are asking before I run off at that mouth.

[Garrdor]

Trollbait,

What did you do in the military? Did you contribute to the deaths of nonchristians with your actions? You and my stepdad might get along. You two can have a fucking bible study together, and then later - go to the shooting range!

[Trollbait]

I was in charge of walking your mother.....

[Finglefinn]

Am I the only person who thinks that Romney's inclusive freedom and religion comments were harmless, if not ringing with fundamental truth?

[Arathena]

Yes, Jecks, I am a lay member of the Catholic Church. The only way I could have beaten you over the head any harder with it is to put on a miter and hit you with a thurible. Shall I quote the works of Augustine to you, moved as he was by the Holy Spirit?

As I said, I have to thank you for forcing me to go attempt to learn correct thinking. That much good has come out of this. As you have quoted, all who seek are saved. The grace of God is granted to ALL, most especially those who have sinned deeply against Him, and to those who have not heard the word. By that grace, we are turned away from sin. But we must accept that grace, and like all men, we may choose to turn away from it. Only in conforming to the Law written by the Lord upon our hearts and our souls, may we accept that grace, and grow our faith in the Lord. Our faith is the spark, the works the fuel that feed it, so that our faith might grow into a great flame by which others might spark their own faith. To take part in the design of the Lord by your own free will, to accept the law because it resonates with the goodness of the Spirit that the Son granted to us, because it is right, not because it brings reward - that is faith - concious surrender to the will of God.

[Garrdor]

If you were walking my Mule mother, with a repertoire such as yours - should I call you 'Daddy' ?

Hyuck hyuck!

[Trollbait]

Yes, Jecks, I am a lay member of the Catholic Church. The only way I could have beaten you over the head any harder with it is to put on a miter and hit you with a thurible. Shall I quote the works of Augustine to you, moved as he was by the Holy Spirit?

Then as a lay Catholic where do you come off abusing the Apostle Paul in such a fashion? Never in the history of the Roman Catholic Church has ANY council done as much.

Peter may be the rock upon which the Church is built but it was the Apostle Paul who taught it how to behave.

The Apostle Paul's writing play more into Canon Law than any other Apostle.

Where do you think the Catholic Church gets the justification for priests to remain celibate and unmarried from?

32I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's affairs—how he can please the Lord. 33But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife—1 Corinthians 7:32-33

And where do you think they got the idea that divorce is wrong?

10To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife. -1 Corinthians 7:10-11

As far as the actual point of our discussion (Salvation through Grace vs. Salvation through works) after reading what you have written in your last post we are as close to agreeing with each other as we can be without being in exact agreement and I am satisfied.

I will refrain from the usual jabs and jibes at the Catholics but understand this: The Catholic Church is the worst offender when it comes to being paralyzed by irrelevant legalisms, dogma, and Canon Law. I am not one of those who say that Catholics are going to Hell for their beliefs. On the contrary I think many Catholics are truly saved through Grace and therefore are Heaven bound. But I do recommend caution that you are not too caught up in legalisms that you miss the message.

In fact I would submit that many people like Klast, Garrdor, and Partha are turned off to Christianity BECAUSE of the dogma and legalisms. That and the fact that perversion of the Scriptures have been and are used to inflict all manner of evil on mankind.

[Garrdor]

In fact I would submit that many people like Klast, Garrdor, and Partha are turned off to Christianity BECAUSE of the dogma and legalisms. That and the fact that perversion of the Scriptures have been and are used to inflict all manner of evil on mankind.

/partial agree

[Arathena]

Okay, that rebuke, I did deserve.

But, tradition is important. An understanding of that tradition, of that law, that guides us away from error. It keeps us from reading the Scriptures with eyes that seek only what we wish to see, rather than what is written. It bolsters the Scripture, in providing reason to declaration. It exists to illuminate and teach, not to destroy. Such is the intent. Have there been times when the tradition has been used to create wrong? Yes. Does that make it evil? No more than the Scriptures.

And I'll wager that the remainder of objections to the Faith center around intolerance and the denial of reason, together with the form of evangelism that is nearly an assault in its aggressive nature.

[Kulaf]

What made metaphysical thinking a trait that humanity passed on?

First can you define metaphysical thinking? I'm not sure what that means to you personally. When you get in to terms like this everyone has their own interpretation and I want to make sure I understand what you are asking before I run off at that mouth.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/metaphysics

Basically thinking outside ones own existance to try to grasp the unknowable.

[Trollbait]

Okay, that rebuke, I did deserve.

But, tradition is important. An understanding of that tradition, of that law, that guides us away from error. It keeps us from reading the Scriptures with eyes that seek only what we wish to see, rather than what is written. It bolsters the Scripture, in providing reason to declaration. It exists to illuminate and teach, not to destroy. Such is the intent. Have there been times when the tradition has been used to create wrong? Yes. Does that make it evil? No more than the Scriptures.

And I'll wager that the remainder of objections to the Faith center around intolerance and the denial of reason, together with the form of evangelism that is nearly an assault in its aggressive nature.

As a Messianic Jew I agree completely with what you have said here.

We still follow the Law and observe the Jewish holidays as well as the Christian ones, being sure to understand their meaning.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Jecks -

You might want to bone up on Catholic tradition if you're going to be spouting off about it. Celibacy in the priesthood wasn't a part of the Church until a good few hundred years or so after the death of Christ. St. Paul even speaks about deacons, priests and bishops, as "having only one wife." Even when the idea began to be incorporated into Catholic practice, the western and eastern Church were split on it.

Celibacy really had little to do with scripture, and more to do with land and property possession. The estate of a priest who died with no legitimate heirs ended up in the hands of the Church. High incentive for a policy of celibacy.

[Select]

Yes, I believe they are (except Jews for reasons I explained before)

Where is this Dd? I'm pinched for time these days, but I'm very interested in this debate.
I'll admit I've been speed reading and skimming the thread, but I want to see that part and can't find it >.<.