GoT is soooo close

[Alluveal]

Well, you will have more reasons to be sad in the pants. But we are here to comfort you.

There is a "FUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK" moment if you don't know that already. But, I think it's a hopeful fuck.

[Harlowe]

I really, really hope it doesn't involve Jon Snow...because

Hidden Information!

I think that Jon Snow is a Stark, but not Eddard Stark's bastard. I think he's the child of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen and might be the real Azor Ahai come again (not Stannis) that Melisandre keeps going on about. That's how I think Lyanna died, the very common way medieval women usually die - during or from child birth, not because Rhaegar raped and murdered her and Eddard brought him home to raise claiming he was his bastard because it was his beloved sister's child. That's why he never spoke about Jon's mother (it was such a touchy subject remember) but he did tell Jon that he would. I think Rhaegar loved her.

[Alluveal]

Hidden Information!

It's a huge theory that R+L=J. It's also a theory that Jon is Azor A'hai reborn and yeah, I totally agree with both of those. 100%. Though I think Jon's "signs" are far more subtle and metaphorical. Once you get through the book, I can show you forum posts (on another board) where this is discussed at length, but don't want to spoil his stuff for ADWD.

I think Melisandre misread the signs about Stannis, or, perhaps the Red God meant for her to go with Stannis north and thus find her way to Jon.

I read somewhere that the producers for GoT (HBO series) "had a theory" about Jon's true parentage and said that when they brought it up to Martin, he confirmed it. The question is, what did the producers think? The R+L=Jon Snow theory is by far the most popular. I think a few characters might know about Jon: Aemon Targaryen and Barristan Selmy (possibly).

I'm also flirting with the idea that Tyrion is a Targaryen as well. There was that whole thing about his mother supposedly having an affair with the mad king. Also, Tywin says to Tyrion in ASOS: "Men’s laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine."

Prophecies talk about the three-headed dragon and many think that Dany is one, Jon is one, and Tyrion is the third. His hair is often described as white (as opposed to golden blonde like his siblings), the one eye green/one eye black (dark purple?) thing, and his dwarfism. That's definitely a genetic deal that pops up when there is inbreeding and the Targaryens did quite a bit of that.

I don't know. It's thin--super thin, but I still wonder. The books don't confirm these, so again, I don't think this is spoilery stuff, just speculation! And Tyrion always had a fascination with dragons. =)

[Harlowe]

That's what I was wondering too!!

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Because genetic defects don't exactly run in the Lannister family, and so far, it appears his path is leading directly to Dany. That line stood out to me early on and has been nagging me on and off while reading the books - when he said he couldn't prove he was not his.

This is so fun finally having folks to talk to about it without spoiling anything. Like I said, my guy won't talk about it at all until I finish it (he doesn't want to accidentally spoil anything) and I'm avoiding the forums like the plague until I'm done. I also need to read Tales of Dunk and Egg as well and honestly, I want to start over with the series to catch things I might have been reading half-asleep at night. I just love the world he's created so much, I don't want to leave it.

[Alluveal]

Let me know when you start Dunk and Egg. I haven't read those and want to. We can do internet book club. Maybe others here will join.

It's great to wonder about certain theories. It makes me itch for the sequel. I know that they cut essentially 1/4 of ADWD to give it a more "cliffhangery" ending, so he already has that few hundred pages to put toward Winds of Winter. And now that he's untied his stupid Mereneese knot (ugh--I really felt that in ADWD), we can hopefully move forward with far more momentum.

That's one thing about ADWD I didn't like--Dany's chapters. I felt like all she did was sit around on her silken pillows and let little fish exfoliate her dead skin, all the while waiting for Daaaaario to come fuck her and make her scream. Sure, there's the occasional wandering around her palace balcony and ugh, having to read her hold court.

That's more in the beginning I think, so you've probably already passed that crap.

[Harlowe]

Actually that is STILL going on near the middle, but you nailed it.

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She just finished fucking Daaaaaaario again and then proceeds to marry Hizdahr zo Loraq that day. Her chapters have gotten so dull again, like a few books back right after Drogo died and it was all Daenyrs just whiny and wandering about.

[Alluveal]

Pretty much. You wonder how he can go from her kicking ass (especially with the slavers) to.... this.

Hidden Information!

BUT........ I feel like this is what Martin was fighting against. Not only making timelines match in different parts of Essos, but giving her character motivation enough to take certain steps forward. I think you are now reading the Mereneese knot, so to say, and yeah. It sucks hard. And I have to say, her chaining her dragons beneath the city was just shitty. I wanted to slap the ever-living piss out of her. "Oh, I don't know what to do. They're so wild." You are the mother of dragons. Be a mother, for fuck's sake.



I will say this, I'm hopeful by the end of ADWD on this particular thing. I do think that this book definitely proves that she's kind of a shit ruler. Maybe she's learning how to be better at it, or maybe she's learning that she isn't a ruler at all.

And on the more interesting side of things, I'll always wonder about what she saw/heard in the House of the Undying and from Quaith:

She told Dany: "To go north, you must journey south, to reach the west you must go east. To go forward you must go back and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

And....

. . . three heads has the dragon . . .
. . . three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love . . .
. . . three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love . . .
. . . three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love . . .

I think the three fires are:

1 for life - waking her dragons
1 for death - Drogo?
1 for love - finding another love (unknown - I do not believe it's Daario)

three mounts...
one to bed - drogo
one to dread - hubby in ADWD
one to love - (unknown/not-Daario)

three treasons...
once for blood - The witch to infected drogo (?)
once for gold - Hard to say. Could be Jorah.
once for love - I think this will be Daario. But we'll see.

And the other things she saw in the House of the Undying...

• A beautiful, naked woman being ravished by four of the dwarves who serve the house.
  A feast of slaughtered corpses holding cups, spoons, and food, with a dead man with a wolf's head sitting on a throne wearing an iron crown, apparently foreshadowing the Red Wedding.
  Daenerys' childhood home with the red door in Braavos.
  A throne room with dragon skulls on the walls where a king resembling Aerys II Targaryen sits on a barbed throne and appears to give the order to burn the Red Keep during the Sack of King's Landing.
  A room where a silver-haired man (presumably Rhaegar Targaryen) names his son Aegon, says the child is "the prince that was promised", then plays a harp.
  A "splendor of wizards" who falsely claim to be the Undying of Qarth and offer to teach Daenerys the secret speech of dragonkind.

and...
Viserys' gruesome death.
A tall lord with copper-skin and silver-gold hair beneath a banner of a fiery stallion, with a burning city in the background (this may be a glimpse at what Rhaego's future would have been).
A dying prince (likely Rhaegar Targaryen) with rubies flying from his chest, mutters a woman's name with his last breath.
A blue-eyed king who casts no shadow raises a red sword in his hand. (Azor A'hai!)
A cloth dragon sways on poles amidst a cheering crowd.
A great stone beast takes wing from a smoking tower, breathing shadows.
Daenerys' silver trots through grass to a darkling stream under a sea of stars.
A corpse standing at the prow of a ship with bright eyes and grey smiling lips.
A blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice, filling the air with sweetness.

Prophecy overload!

[Harlowe]

Gahhh

Hidden Information!

She is absolutely SHIT as a ruler and I am so unbelievably pissed by how she has treated her dragons. She doesn't deserve them, she doesn't know shit about them. I'm hoping Tyrion comes along to help with that.

[Alluveal]

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I've had people argue with me about her rulership skills and I kind of roll my eyes and pat them on the head. I think this is an example of how she got off the path, so to say. That's just my guess. She got suckered into becoming a queen of a city and into becoming the white Jesus for a people that, quite frankly, aren't ready for that shit. I think that's why the ending of season 3 on HBO made me uncomfortable. I kept thinking, "Yeah, this is all going to work out so well. NOT."

Drogon is away at this point, right? I remember him killing a child in Storm of Swords and then he kind of vanishes.

[Harlowe]

Hidden Information!

yeah Drogon buggered off, probably because of the whole chaining up the others bs. She's just a shitty ruler, not to mention like you were saying, those regions not being ready for her sudden freedom-fest. It's probably not all that different from our meddling in the middle east. She does her big angry Jesus thing, then it's always okay...what next. Oh next we go on journey without many supplies to liberate more people, so those rulers can trash the countryside and make an even bigger resource. She's just a shitty planner and she always has been. Things that have worked out, did so because she was lucky enough to have the right person fall into her lap to take care of it or give her something. Everything she touches on her own she seems to fuck up.

[Torakus]

As to Jon's parentage.

Hidden Information!

Barristan Selmy reminisces about the tournament at Harrenhal after he had saved King Aerys from Duskendale. At that tourney Selmy falls in love with Ashara Dayne (Dornish) but Ashara chooses Ned Stark. She becomes pregnant with Ned's bastard. He says that Ashara's child, a daughter is stillborn, and Ashara commits suicide, but it seems to fit the timeline to potentially be Jon. We already know swapping one dead baby for another is a common theme (Bran and Rickon with the miller's boys, the two wildling boys, a mutilated infant for Aegon Targeryan, etc.) that Martin repeats. I don't find it a big leap to think that Jon might be the child of Ned and Ashara Dayne, though I am not sure where that story arc would lead.

[Alluveal]

I agree. She doesn't seem to have a lot of agency. I can see that being part of her character arc and evolution, though. Especially by the end of ADWD.

[Ddrak]

Hidden Information!

A blue-eyed king who casts no shadow raises a red sword in his hand. (Azor A'hai!)

"blue-eyed"??? Uh... I just figured out what that means... Hot Damn!

[Harlowe]

Hidden Information!

Ddrak, whoa....do you think that means Stannis ?

[Ddrak]

Hidden Information!

Ddrak, whoa....do you think that means Stannis?

Let me know when you finish ADWD and I'll talk, because I don't know where you're at and don't wanna spoil.

[Harlowe]

Alrighty! I'm nearing the 70% mark.

[Alluveal]

I think I'm more giddy for Harlowe than I was for myself when I read it.

(grins)

70%? Page # or kindle location? I want to see.

Amidst smoke and salt....

(sighs)

[Harlowe]

My kindle is saying 70% I'm on the beginning of the chapter where Jon is coming to an agreement with Tormund Giantsbane.

I'm giddy I can talk to people smerter than me about it without risking spoilers.

[Alluveal]

You'll be smarter than all of us by the time you're done, because it will all be super fresh in your mind. Not so much in mine.

[Alluveal]

Oh, it's quiet. I'm afraid for Harlowe.