Steubenville Can Suck it

[Alluveal]

I just need a place to vent about the shittiness surrounding the Steubenville rape.

Fuck the news outlets, too. Assholes.

[Ddrak]

Yes, there's a lot of fucked-uppery going on.

What's your specific thoughts though?

Dd

[Embar Angylwrath]

Seems to me like the system worked. With more coming too. Two football players going to juvi for a while, with the investigation continuing into the coaches activity. Add to that a couple of girls in another state arrested for making threatening statements about the victim.

Lots of bad decisions here, from the players to the adults. But can we apply some perspective here?

She was "digitally penetrated", which if I understand it correctly is the boys stuck their fingers in her vagina. And they took pictures. And she doesn't remember a bit of it, probably never will if she was in an alcoholic blackout. All she knows about what happened is what people are telling her. So she can't be traumatized by her memories, because she doesn't have any. All she knows is what people tell her.

That in no way excuses the actions of the boys. They are getting off light if you ask me. They should have been tried as adults, any 16-17 year old knows those boundaries. What they did was wrong and criminal, and they knew it. They should be serving multi-year sentences in a federal pen.

But the bigger crime, in my mind, is the cover-up by the adults who knew what went down. Hopefully, the hand of justice lands most heavily on them.

[Freecare Spiritwise]

That's some wack shit.

[Harlowe]

Maybe it's just the way you phrased it, but are you honestly saying because she was passed out and just had some fingers stuck in her vagina, she has no trauma to remember unless people tell her and this isn't really rape?

That rape can only happen with dick penetration, or is it a matter of the size...say a bottle or broom-handle is rape, but anything smaller would not be?

[Freecare Spiritwise]

The Onion as usual, puts this in perspective:

College Basketball Star Heroically Overcomes Tragic Rape He Committed

http://www.theonion.com/video/college-b ... agi,19097/

[Embar Angylwrath]

It was a sexual assault Harlowe. Didn't mean to imply otherwise. Is it rape? I don't know, each state has its own definition. Might be rape, might be sodomy, might be called something else, I'd have to look it up.

As to the trauma. How is anyone traumatized by something they can't remember? She's certainly traumatized by everything that happened after she woke up, but she was not traumatized by the act itself.

[Alluveal]

There is just so much crap going around about this and it disgusts me. I did find this piece by Henry Rollins to be solid:

http://www.underthegunreview.net/2013/0 ... e-verdict/

I think what disgusts me more than what these guys did to her (and the people who stood by and did nothing) are the trolls out there who make comments about how a girl who drinks must deserve it. I just don't get it. I hate the human race right now and I know we're not all bad.

[Ddrak]

Here's the conundrum - how do you succinctly say that she massively changed her risk profile through her behaviour without taking the blame away from the guys that raped her?

Dd

[Partha]

Here's the conundrum - how do you succinctly say that she massively changed her risk profile through her behaviour without taking the blame away from the guys that raped her?

Dd

You don't. You know why? Guys who will diddle a passed out girl while taking video of it will probably do it to a sober girl too. Good n' horny plus sports related entitlement means never having to say you're sorry.

[Torakus]

Here's the conundrum - how do you succinctly say that she massively changed her risk profile through her behaviour without taking the blame away from the guys that raped her?

Dd

You don't. You know why? Guys who will diddle a passed out girl while taking video of it will probably do it to a sober girl too. Good n' horny plus sports related entitlement means never having to say you're sorry.

"I don't like the kid but he got a point."

[Ddrak]

@Partha, so you're saying someone faces the same risk of being assaulted whether they are sober or drunk?

Dd

[Kulaf]

Did she ask for it? Of course not. She did however drink herself into such a state that she could not intelligently defend herself. If I passed out at a party and someone drew a dick on my forehead, took pictures of guys with the dicks aimed at my face and stole my underwear.....did I ask for it? And for that matter is anyone going to defend me while I am in such a state? I doubt it.

Just a further example of the double standards we apply in this country.

[Harlowe]

Thanks Embar, I get it now. It was how you phrased it that made me go ....huuh?

I think no matter what condition you are in or why you are in that condition, if people are doing anything unvited to your body, whether that is perm markers on your face or sexual assault - should be treated the same way as if you were sober. There isn't suddently an implied consent because someone passed out or was stupid. I think it's a slippery slope to say the victim has some culpability because that's just a slide away from saying wearing short skirts or exposing too much cleavage or going out alone, somehow makes the person partially responsible for being violated.

I was one of those lame-o, bitches that wouldn't let guys marker passed out guys at parties. I FUCKING hate that bullshit.

[Ddrak]

Harlowe,

Think about this then: A friend is telling you they're thinking of walking home from a party through a bad part of town, or going for a run through some place infested with crack dealers. Would you advise them not to, or would you say "go for it, it's the attacker's fault if anything happens to you"?

Your suggesting that the instant you tell someone to not go somewhere because it increases their risk of being a victim, you're already on the "slippery slope" to blaming them if something does happen. How then can I educate my daughter in the best ways of keeping safe if I can't tell her to avoid risk?

Dd

[Harlowe]

I'm not suggesting that at all. It's not at all the same as appointing a percentage of blame upon the victim for the actions of the perpetrator in an assault situation.

It's when you feel that by not following your advise, that is a reason to place partial blame on the victim - that judgement is when it becomes a slippery slope leading to a burka and women requiring a male to travel outdoors. The more they have to protect themselves from men, the more actions they have to take to be "safe", the more oppressed they become.

[Ddrak]

So what I'm trying to understand then is where you'd think the slope starts.

I can tell someone "Don't get passed-out drunk because it puts you at risk of assault", but when someone gets passed out drunk and then assaulted you can't say "You shouldn't have got passed out drunk"?

My view is "percentage blame" isn't a rational way of looking at things. No matter what a victim does, the attackers are 100% responsible for their actions. The victim is responsible for their own actions and how they manage their own risk.

In this specific case (and notice I'm not talking genders in my previous assault statements), if she knew the guys and believed they were trustworthy people then I don't see any reason to say she made poor decisions towards her own safety (medical issues of getting *that* drunk aside). If she was with complete strangers then she certainly made poor decisions, none of which excuse the rape, and it's a disservice service to potential victims to say you can't criticize both her decisions as well as the rapist's decisions without diluting "blame".

Dd

[Alluveal]

From what I've read, there are many allegations out there that the victim was drugged (roofied?). So, there's that to contend with.

As for whether or not the "risk" of rape increases when women are drunk, that's a hard one. Here are a few things that come to mind:

Alcohol also lowers inhibitions and reduces one's "normal" checks on behavior. A perpetrator is less likely to notice and to respect subtle or direct messages to stop.

A woman might be more likely to place herself in danger when drunk. She might also be less likely to recognize "early signs" of trouble and would be less effective in fleeing or resisting should either become necessary.

An assailant may consciously choose an impaired victim.

A would-be rapist might use alcohol as an excuse to commit an act if he can feasibly justify it by citing alcohol use.

I think these things are pretty obvious and I think a parent can teach their children how to avoid these types of situations in many cases. But, not all cases. There will be the woman who gets roofied. There will be the woman who is raped by a stranger and no alcohol is involved (whatsoever). I mean, you can take preventative measures, but those measures won't always work and there will be cases where no amount of prevention could have stopped a rape.

As the mother of a daughter, I certainly plan on teaching my child how to be as prepared as she can be, how to avoid situations that might increase her risk of harm. But, I'm also counting on the parents of boys to say, "Hey, don't rape girls."

[Harlowe]

I have no idea what you're attempting to get at Ddrak. Saying a women must do this or that or they basically "brought it on themselves" in some way, is the slope. It's as simple as that. It isn't about safety advice to our daughters, my comment was speaking to blame, that's it.

[Freecare Spiritwise]

Here's my answer: When you mention the girl's poor choices in the same sentence as the crime perpetrated against her, it sometimes makes it hard to tell you apart from the assholes who are actually conflating the two, and who genuinely think the victim is to blame. That's what you're putting out there.

My 23 year old daughter's reaction makes LuLu's anger look tame. She thinks society is de-valuing and de-emphasizing women. One of her choice comments was along the lines of "if you're gonna fuck us, at least pay us 100%" She said: "You, old white guy, why the hell am I only worth 70% ?" and I said "Bah, you won't hit the glass ceiling until after you're past middle management. You've still got 10 years to go before they screw you out of the 30%. Hopefully by then we'll have evolved."