Debt deal

[Ddrak]

Wait a sec - you can't conflate the faith of those on the Mayflower with those of the founding fathers 150 years later.

Dd

[Embar Angylwrath]

IMHO, John the Baptist was the first Christian.....but continue.

Please expalin.

[Torakus]

You're completely wrong with your last statement. If our founders never had their faith they (or their families) very likely never would have taken the dangerous boat ride across the Atlantic to escape religious persecution. That's exactly why in America today you can be a Muslim, a Christian, a Jew, a Wiccan, an Agnostic or an Atheist. Had they never been here because of their collective faiths America today would be a much different place, with much different laws and more than likely much different technologies. Because of that; how they came together, how they prayed together (though many of them were from conflicting faiths) and how they settled upon an agreement with the Constitution we have today; it matters very much what their religion was.

I think we hold the founders of this nation in too high esteem in regards to religious freedom. Religious freedom in early America was really freedom to be a Protestant, the flavor of Protestantism being your choice. Absent the specter of the Catholic Church, and its history of destabilizing European governments, there would likely have been no officially mandated separation of church and state. Hell the anti-catholic bent in early America brought a whole class of Catholic immigrants down to slave status for a long time.

Tora

[Embar Angylwrath]

Yup... Irish immigrants are a great example.

[Kulaf]

IMHO, John the Baptist was the first Christian.....but continue.

Please expalin.

John was the first to recognize the divinity of Jesus.

[Embar Angylwrath]

IMHO, John the Baptist was the first Christian.....but continue.

Please expalin.

John was the first to recognize the divinity of Jesus.

Interesting interpretation of the gospels which account for John the Baptiist. My understanding is that JtB recognized Jesus as the Messiah... but the Messiah wasn't necessarily divine or of the divine. That was debated and finally settled 300 years or so later. By your criteria, I would think that Mary was the first Christian, since, according to Gospel, she was informed she was going to be magically impregnated with the Son of God (the Gospel's words, not mine). That seems to be a more direct link to the aspect of divinity than someone who recognzes a messiah (and messiah is somethign that can be plural).

However, I'd like to know your gospel citations (and other info) which support your notion that JtB considered the Messiah a divine person.

[Kulaf]

Matthew 3

1 In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea
2 and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”
3 This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah: “A voice of one calling in the wilderness,‘Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.’”

4 John’s clothes were made of camel’s hair, and he had a leather belt around his waist. His food was locusts and wild honey.
5 People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan.
6 Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?
8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.
9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.
10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John.
14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”
15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.
17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

[MeGusta]

You would be mistaken to apply such a standard to determine who is the first Christian. A Christian is simply a Christ Follower in the earliest context. That would indicate that Andrew was the first Christian. John the Baptist recognized Him but did not follow Him. John the Baptist only applies if you use the standard of the recognition of divinity, that being that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God and that John the Baptist accepted that fact.

[Embar Angylwrath]

@ Kulaf - so where in that passage does JtB acknowledge Jesus is divine?

[Embar Angylwrath]

You would be mistaken to apply such a standard to determine who is the first Christian. A Christian is simply a Christ Follower in the earliest context. That would indicate that Andrew was the first Christian. John the Baptist recognized Him but did not follow Him. John the Baptist only applies if you use the standard of the recognition of divinity, that being that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God and that John the Baptist accepted that fact.

Actually.. wouldn't the Three Kings be before Andrew? And I remain unconvinced that JtB recognized Jesus as divine. Messiah.. yes. Divine... no. By Kulaf's interpretation, Mary was the first Christian, since she affirmed that her baby was 1) announced by a messenger of God, 2) born to a virgin, and 3) messenger of God chose the name of the baby, and told her she was to bear the Son of God.

And you make the same mistake Failikin did. You conflate Christ, a title (the annointed one) with divinity. Even the followers of Jesus the Christ in the early years couldn't agree with that. It took them 300+ years to finally come to some consensus on Jesus' divinity.

Every post I make in refute of the ridiculous (but heartfelt) statements others make on Christianity leads me to believe this is one big marketing effort. And it saddens me to say so.

[Fallakin Kuvari]

I think its more of a lack of teaching Christ as a title back then, than it is some sort of organized marketing effort.

[Kulaf]

@ Kulaf - so where in that passage does JtB acknowledge Jesus is divine?

You seriously can't find it?

[Kulaf]

Every post I make in refute of the ridiculous (but heartfelt) statements others make on Christianity leads me to believe this is one big marketing effort. And it saddens me to say so.

I'm curious......exactly who are you accusing of engaging in a marketing effort?

[Embar Angylwrath]

@ Kulaf - so where in that passage does JtB acknowledge Jesus is divine?

You seriously can't find it?

No, I can't. That's why I asked you to pull it out and show me. Can you do that? As to the marketing... I think after about the first 300 years or so, Christainity became a product. Organized religion surrounding the teaching of Jesus merrely use his life to perpetuate their organization(s).

[Kulaf]

@ Kulaf - so where in that passage does JtB acknowledge Jesus is divine?

You seriously can't find it?

No, I can't. That's why I asked you to pull it out and show me. Can you do that? As to the marketing... I think after about the first 300 years or so, Christainity became a product. Organized religion surrounding the teaching of Jesus merrely use his life to perpetuate their organization(s).

11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

This is clearly reference to a divine source. Unless some mortal would have the power to baptize people with the Holy Spirit. And verse 12 is clearly in reference to the judgement day......he will gather up the chosen and toss the others in the lake of fire.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Not so clear to me, but I don't doubt your belief. I see it more as a recognition that Jesus was the Messiah, which in context, means "redeemer", a person of direct descent from David, a possible King, and annointed by god (hence the "Christ" title). The Messiah, in Jewish tradition (and that's what we are dealing with during the time of Jesus), the Messiah was not typically viewed as divine.

But then again, JtB was part of the emerging apocolyptic sect of Jews, and like other members of the apocolyptic jewish sects, probably held some non-traditional views.

Knowing that, I don't see that citation as definitive of John's beliefs. He certainly recognizes Jesus as the Messiah, and a big game changer... but a manifestation of god... not convinced.

[MeGusta]

Every post I make in refute of the ridiculous (but heartfelt) statements others make on Christianity leads me to believe this is one big marketing effort. And it saddens me to say so.

I don't really have any heartfelt statements since I am agnostic but I do agree with you about the marketing.

[Jarochai Alabaster]

Back on topic...

Without specifically mentioning Republicans, S&P senior director Joydeep Mukherji said the stability and effectiveness of American political institutions were undermined by the fact that “people in the political arena were even talking about a potential default,” Mukherji said.

“That a country even has such voices, albeit a minority, is something notable,” he added. “This kind of rhetoric is not common amongst AAA sovereigns.”

[Fallakin Kuvari]

Funny, I don't think it was Republicans that suggested "default" first.

October 18th, 2010; Fiscal Times.

Austan Goolsbee, January 4th in the NYT.

The Economist; January 13th.

[Lurker]

There's a difference between warning about a default and threatening to cause one, or in the case of some Teapublicans, eagerly hoping for one.