Jumping in to the Entitlements Pool with Both Feet

[Embar Angylwrath]

Correlation is not the same as causation. And its cheaper to eat healthy than it is to subsist on fast food and junk food. A trip through the drive-thru can cost you 7-8 bucks nowadays. Iasked Partha this once, and he dodged the question.. wouldn't answer it. I asked him if tomorrow, all fast food places and junk food magically disappeared off the earth, would people with poor eating habits just sit in their homes and starve? The answer to that, of course, is no. They'd find something else to eat. Poor diet is much more about choice and convenience than it is about income.

[Jarochai Alabaster]

I asked him if tomorrow, all fast food places and junk food magically disappeared off the earth, would people with poor eating habits just sit in their homes and starve?

I certainly don't think a majority of them would, but Partha did bring up a valid point in regards to the availability of grocery stores to low income neighborhoods. While necessity would get the overwhelming majority moving, and they'd find a way to get to the grocery stores, there would be those who simply couldn't do so under their own power. Now, any legislation is going to have unintended effects, and I believe anticipating and mitigating those effects is part of the process, so how would we go about mitigating the negative impact on those elderly and infirm who cannot reasonably take loads of groceries across town without major assistance? To an individual who can barely walk (Or is wheelchair bound) even getting groceries from the store to the bus stop, on the bus, then off the bus and from the stop to their home is completely implausible. And while I'm well aware there are already assistance programs and charity groups for people in these positions, effectively cutting even more people off from their closest food sources would likely add to the burden placed on these programs, and I think we should develop a reasonable expectation of how much and what can be done to mitigate it before we act and potentially starve out a section of our elderly.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Dont those same elderly and imfirm have the same challenges getting around to the fast food joint?

[Kulaf]

Are the groceries to make your own meals cheaper.......sometimes. But you are forgetting the rather large investment that needs to be made in kitchen utensils and cooking utensils that needs to happen to support the making of meals. You would have to look at the amount of single mothers in the workforce and their desire to come home from a 8 or 10 hour job and then cook a meal. Or wether the family budget would support going out and buying hunderds of dollars in materials to help prepare and store food.

So you are right in the sense that if fast food places closed tomorrow would people find something else to eat......sure, they would find some other pre-processed food at the grocery store they could serve quickly and with little preparation and be no better off.

[Jarochai Alabaster]

Dont those same elderly and imfirm have the same challenges getting around to the fast food joint?

Not if the McDonald's is a block away. Or the gas stations/convenience store that's overpriced and carries mostly junk food. Getting to and from these places may be difficult, but what does anyone carry home from McDonald's? Seriously? Did you even think this question through? My whole post was regarding the difficulty of carrying large (Or even moderate) amounts of groceries ACROSS TOWN without one's own vehicle, and you're suggesting this would be no more difficult than walking a few blocks? Have you lost your mind?

[Minute]

You're absolutely right Kulaf, & if you don't think so, fast food joints don't even have to close to see this in action. Go to any grocery store in a poor area of town at any given time of day & look at the fresh produce section vs the sections where there is shit you can deep fry. One is just an area they pass through coming into the store, the other is a fucking traffic jam. If you're some poor single parent living off of $10 an hour, you could give a shit about long term effects of anything. You can spend $15 bucks dunking food in boiling lard & feed the whole family.

[Ddrak]

I think it's the time/convenience factor more than anything. That's really the only time I end up eating junk - when I've had a long-ass day and don't feel like cooking (though I'll often get the god-awful-expensive salads).

Dd

[Kulaf]

And the reason money comes into play, is that wealthier people can choose to go out to a nice restaraunt for a decent meal. The working poor do not have than luxury. This is why income plays a huge role in this issue.

[Embar Angylwrath]

@ Kulaf - Cooking utensils.. seriously? Are you claiming that these people NEVER prepare a meal? Ok, lets go with that, even though I find it highly unlikely. I'm betting I can outfit a kitchen with al the basics for less than $50 at a thrift store.

@ Minute - So the traffic jam in the fast food aisle... people forced there? Or do they choose that aisle?

@ Jaro - Ok, the McDonalds is three blocks away. So the elderlyu /infirmperson you're talking about is going to head out 3x a day instead of once a week to pick up groceries? Makes no sense if you're argument is that its too hard for them to get around.

Its choice, people. Not money. Is it difficult? Maybe for some. But it's doable for most.

[Kulaf]

It's both. Not sure why you cannot see that.

[Kulaf]

In fact.....I seem to recall a story of a young man putting himself through college eating raman as his main food. Anyone else remember that story of personal choice over lack of money?

[Harlowe]

The poor have always suffered from obesity, even eons prior to fast food restaurants. Personally I think it's the carbs/fillers they become dependent on as opposed to fatty foods. What causes you to gain weight the fastest is the food that more quickly converts - like carbs, sugars. The working poor also tend to work longer hours (or more than one job) and have less time off. They are caught in a cycle that is not condusive to being healthy all around. Lack of sleep will help make you fat as well. This is a much more complicated issue than - fat people need to exercise and eat less fast food.

Eating well is not cheap by any means. I know I spend an assload of money buying tons of fresh produce and that's along with having a share with a CSA as well.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Dried beans, dried lentils, oats, brown rice, potatos and sweet potatos... all very healthy and all very cheap. With a couple ham hocks, an oiinion and a bag of beans I can feed a dozen people.. all for about $6 bucks. That's $0.50/serving and requires one pot, one knife and a stir spoon. If you don't have twelve people, but you have a family of four.. guess what.. leftovers for two more days! No need to head to the gas station for a frozen burrito!

Canned tuna, canned salmon... healthy and cheap (if not packed in oil). With two cans of tuna, a bag of whole grain pasta and a can of fat free cream of mushroom soup, I can make a tuna fish casserole that will feed about 8 people for about $6. That's $0.75/serving. Takes about 30 minutes to make and requires one pot, one stirring spoon, one casserole dish.

For fruits and vegetables... apples, bananas and seasonal grapes are cheap. Depending on the time of year, citrus can be very cheap too. Frozen vegetables (while not as good as fresh, but definately better than potato chips) are cheap. Frozen spinach.. cheap.

Now.. if you want boneless, skinless organic chicken breasts, hormone and antibiotic free grass-fed beef, cage-free orgainc eggs.. thats another matter.

As to top ramen.. yep.. I ate a lot of it. I ate a lot of it for two reasons.. it was cheap and it was easy. I was lazy. I could have eaten better for the same cost, but I didn't want to. I wanted the convenience of opening up a package, boiling water and slurping noodles out of the pot. I fully take responisbility that my bad dietary choices in college were a result of just not wanting to put any type of effort in eating more healthy.

[Harlowe]

Meat is not cheap - and I'm not talking about free-range antibiotic free, so where is the cheap protein in all that? Canned fish has mercury in it, you aren't supposed to eat that more than once a week. Potatoes aren't good for you. Your cheap meals don't have any vegetables in it, you toss in "frozen vegetables" like they are always cheap. They aren't, unless you going for strictly peas and carrots.

As for fruit, that's a seriously limited source...and only the ones highest in sugar - apples, bananas. Grapes are only cheap seasonally. Frozen fruit is not cheap.

Historically, poor people have had health issues. Due to diet, overwork, probably lack of sleep and lack of healthcare.

Again, it's far less simple than - poor fat people need to eat less fast food.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Harlowe - beans are LOADED with protein. They are one of the best protein sources out therre, and tehy are cheap cheap cheap. That's the cheap protein.

And Harlowe... eating fast food/junk food doesn't have any vegetables either. I laid out better alternatives than junk food/fast food for much cheaper costs. Maybe with the money people save by switching to healthier (and very easy to mke) food, they'll have more money left over to buy items like kale or collard greens (still pretty cheap and very good for you), a wider selection of fruits, and some additional animal based protein. (BTW, whole chickens are very cheap, at about $6/bird. Rub one with salt, pepper and oil, roast for about an hour, serve with steamed carrots and broccoli and brown rice, and you'll feed 6-8 people for about $8... one dollar per meal...raw carrots are cheap too, broccoli is middle range cost)

[Kulaf]

When was the last time you went grocery shopping where you were buying the food Embar? Your prices are way out of date.

[Embar Angylwrath]

I go about once a week. I live in California, not the lowest cost state around. Particularly I live in San Diego... not a low cost part of California either. Which price do you think is off?

[Embar Angylwrath]

Oh.. I typically buy my food at Albertsons for the most part. Some at Trader Joes or Jimbos. Rarely at Whole Foods, which can be pricey. Never at Costco or Walmart.

[Torakus]

I live in Southcrest in San Diego. It and the neighboring Bario Logan are the two lowest income areas in San Diego. There is no shortage of available supermarkets. I can't speak for other cities, but I have a hard time believing San Diego is a corner case. I bet if I dropped a 3 mile circle around my house I would find more supermarkets than fast food joints or gas stations (full disclosure: 1/4 mile to my west is the Naval Station and beyond that to the west is the bay and then ocean). Did I mention that the supermarkets, even the small guys like Foodland (2 of them within a mile of my house) have prices that are competitive with the Navy Commissary (about half mile from me) where I pay no tax? From someone who lives in an economically depressed area (by choice my income is actually about 100k over the areas median household income), I have a hard time believing the studies Partha mentioned. Embar's prices are fairly representative of what we pay in this area also.

Tora

[Kulaf]

Tell you what. Let's compare a list of "staples". Make a grocery list and I will go compare prices at my local grocer.