Seperation of Church & School

[Fallakin Kuvari]

Yes, because the majority of church ministries actively provide "lists of chaff" to children for them to debate with their teachers when evolution is brought up...

Just out of curiosity, where did you grow up?

Middle of nowhere, Ohio.

[Minute]

To try and accommodate the multitude of different beliefs is impossible. We don't teach evolution because we believe it to be true, we do so because right now it's what has the most scientifically provable evidence. That is the separation that is drawn on what to teach in a public school.

[Ddrak]

I don't think anyone would have too many issues with a high school science teacher not teaching evolution if they aren't comfortable in their grounding on the subject. The issue is the teaching of creationist theories in a science rather than a religion class.

Dd

[Fallakin Kuvari]

I don't think anyone would have too many issues with a high school science teacher not teaching evolution if they aren't comfortable in their grounding on the subject. The issue is the teaching of creationist theories in a science rather than a religion class.

Dd

A million times this.

And that is most likely the reason the science teachers in my school district never tried teaching evolution. We certainly didn't get creationism forced down our throats either, we learned scientific methods and how to use them. Personally, given the religion-esque devotion some people who advocate for evolution teaching have its probably better to treat it as a religion in public schools and leave it up to college professors (who are better equipped to teach it) to teach.

[Kulaf]

I don't think anyone would have too many issues with a high school science teacher not teaching evolution if they aren't comfortable in their grounding on the subject. The issue is the teaching of creationist theories in a science rather than a religion class.

Dd

I agree. What I don't agree with is the supposition without fact that religion.....and more specifically Christianity, is the sole reason that Evolution is not taught. That position is clearly not supported by the evidence presented.

[Minute]

Lengthy but he says it well.

[Jarochai Alabaster]

I don't think anyone would have too many issues with a high school science teacher not teaching evolution if they aren't comfortable in their grounding on the subject.

Frankly I'd be more concerned as to why a high school science teacher wasn't sufficiently educated on the subject of evolution to impart it to their students.

The issue of evolution being taught in schools is most certainly not "are the teachers grounded on the subject." If a teacher isn't informed enough to convey the subject they teach, they should be replaced. Calculus, geometry, chemistry, physics, psychology, biology, economics...all courses that were available to me in high school, and I somehow doubt the average student in a psychology course would be as uneducated about the mind as the average biology student is about evolution. I know my biology class barely touched on the subject, while I can't think of any other course that downplayed or left out such a critical piece of its material. Well, US history entirely left out the genocide of the American Indians and grossly oversimplified slavery and segregation, but we'd just like to sweep those under the rug anyway, now wouldn't we?

Worst case, a teacher can read from the book if they don't know the material well enough to give a proper lecture. There is no reason for a biology teacher to not be able to explain the mechanisms of evolution. The hurdle, of course, is not one of poor grasp of the material. It's a discomfort with discussing the material when the environment is hostile about it.

What I don't understand is why the same group that inherently distrusts our government wants our government to inject religion into everything. Do they actually trust government to convey religious ideals to their satisfaction when it fails to do anything else to their satisfaction?

[Fallakin Kuvari]

You do realize that in most cases teachers aren't actually teaching anymore, right? Instead they get lesson plans and what they're supposed to do from a book that tells them what to do and when to do it. I'm not sure how many schools are doing this type of thing, if its something mandated for all schools to do by the Dept. of Education or if its still in research mode and my friend happens to work at one of the schools using it. Either way, Teachers pretty much aren't allowed to be Teachers anymore.

US history entirely left out the genocide of the American Indians and grossly oversimplified slavery and segregation, but we'd just like to sweep those under the rug anyway, now wouldn't we?

Maybe you just weren't smart enough to realize that what your teachers were talking about was genocide. Teachers in my school were very thorough in teaching the westward expansion part of American history, explaining the battles and how we put them on land reserves.

While we were taught about slavery and how blacks were treated, we never were taught that the import of slaves stopped in 1808.

What I don't understand is why the same group that inherently distrusts our government wants our government to inject religion into everything. Do they actually trust government to convey religious ideals to their satisfaction when it fails to do anything else to their satisfaction?

Actually that group of people is more likely to want the Dept. of Education dissolved.

[Taxious]

You do realize that in most cases teachers aren't actually teaching anymore, right? Instead they get lesson plans and what they're supposed to do from a book that tells them what to do and when to do it.

They get guides on what they are supposed to be teaching... you know... subjects like evolution.

[Fallakin Kuvari]

No, not guides. Books with lesson plans already created that they have to follow to exactly. It lays out everything they have to do and say, and what the kids have to learn.

[Taxious]

I'm sure it's a case by case basis too. My parents are teachers, a lot of my friends' parents are teachers, and I've never heard of premade lesson plans like that that they have to follow exactly.

[Fallakin Kuvari]

Like I said, it may still just be in a "research" stage.

It frightens me that something like this would even be "research", though. Why not give teachers subjects that need to be taught and then let them craft the lesson plans? Isn't that the whole point of being a teacher?

[Kulaf]

What I don't understand is why the same group that inherently distrusts our government wants our government to inject religion into everything. Do they actually trust government to convey religious ideals to their satisfaction when it fails to do anything else to their satisfaction?

Actually I just don't want the government to take a stand on religion. You know.....like our Constitution actually says. Inherant in the formation of the "Establishment" clause was the history of England's declaration/establishment of the "Church of England" and the inherant problems that went with being of a different faith. The Founders wanted to ensure that the US never did that and therefore prohibited the establishment of any official religion, and secured the free exercise of whatever religion you happen to be. The rest was supposed to be reserved to the states to decide what they wanted to do with their respective laws. However it has been perverted to mean that the government shouldn't be neutral......it should have nothing to do with religion at all, and if any institution receives money from the Federal Government it cannot have anything to do with religion either. That is the problem.

[Embar Angylwrath]

In all fairness, Christianity is not the root of the problem Ara. Splinter groups that associate themselves with Chritianity are. Hell, even the Catholics (the root of all Christianity) concede that Genesis is illustory and not documentative. Catholics (and most Christian religions) embrace the notion that truth is inseparable from God. Therefore interpreatons of Gospel, interpretations of Divine Revelation, and interpretations of God's Word can not be inconsistent with truth. That "truth" must not be inconsistent with the workings of the natural world (which God created, according to the Christian religion), because an inconsistency of truth would run counter to the nature of God. (See St. Augustine)

While not taking an "official" stance on evolution vs. creationism, the Catholics give the nod towards evolution. Much of the mainline Christian religions take the same position.

[Partha]

Like I said, it may still just be in a "research" stage.

It frightens me that something like this would even be "research", though. Why not give teachers subjects that need to be taught and then let them craft the lesson plans? Isn't that the whole point of being a teacher?

Not anymore. Now the point of being a teacher is to make your students be able to pass a standard exam at certain grades, and if they don't, you get fired. Deviation into 'teaching' takes time away from preparing for the test.

[Arathena]

In all fairness, Christianity is not the root of the problem Ara. Splinter groups that associate themselves with Chritianity are. Hell, even the Catholics (the root of all Christianity) concede that Genesis is illustory and not documentative. Catholics (and most Christian religions) embrace the notion that truth is inseparable from God. Therefore interpreatons of Gospel, interpretations of Divine Revelation, and interpretations of God's Word can not be inconsistent with truth. That "truth" must not be inconsistent with the workings of the natural world (which God created, according to the Christian religion), because an inconsistency of truth would run counter to the nature of God. (See St. Augustine)

While not taking an "official" stance on evolution vs. creationism, the Catholics give the nod towards evolution. Much of the mainline Christian religions take the same position.

And the two thirds of the United States that believe that mankind was specially created by the Christian god within the last ten thousand years are all splinter groups?

[Jarochai Alabaster]

I've been on a Dinosaur documentary kick for a few days now, subsequently looking shit up on evolution, and came to this.

I have no idea if this guy's outline of the history of anti-evolutionary attacks is accurate, I just wanted to put it here for this quote. I find it amusing.

The day when they would willingly invite Stephen J. Gould to speak about evolution from a church pulpit and when their Bibles contain a disclaimer sticker about how the contents "have not been proven" and how "alternative theories exist" will be the day when we might consider allowing their silliness to invade the schools.

[Ddrak]

That quote is awesome, though I think as a christian I'd rather hear Dawkins than Gould. I find him a much more challenging orator, although I would have to say if Gould gave a lecture from a pulpit then he really would be confirming a hell of a lot of religious beliefs given he died in 2002.

Dd

[Arathena]

That quote is awesome, though I think as a christian I'd rather hear Dawkins than Gould. I find him a much more challenging orator, although I would have to say if Gould gave a lecture from a pulpit then he really would be confirming a hell of a lot of religious beliefs given he died in 2002.

Dd

Well, it is a quote from '00 at the latest. And I would imagine that you could readily hire Dawkins to come to your church and speak.

[Embar Angylwrath]

In all fairness, Christianity is not the root of the problem Ara. Splinter groups that associate themselves with Chritianity are. Hell, even the Catholics (the root of all Christianity) concede that Genesis is illustory and not documentative. Catholics (and most Christian religions) embrace the notion that truth is inseparable from God. Therefore interpreatons of Gospel, interpretations of Divine Revelation, and interpretations of God's Word can not be inconsistent with truth. That "truth" must not be inconsistent with the workings of the natural world (which God created, according to the Christian religion), because an inconsistency of truth would run counter to the nature of God. (See St. Augustine)

While not taking an "official" stance on evolution vs. creationism, the Catholics give the nod towards evolution. Much of the mainline Christian religions take the same position.

And the two thirds of the United States that believe that mankind was specially created by the Christian god within the last ten thousand years are all splinter groups?

Where'd you get that stat? About 75% of people in the US identify themselves as Christians, with half the US population identifying themsleves as Protestant and the other 25% as Catholic. So eliminate the Catholics who don't beleive in a literal interpretation of Genesis nor are creationists (for the large majority).

Then eliminate the Mormons, Methodists, most Baptisits, Lutherans, Epsicopalians, and other centrist Christian religions and there's no way you can make that statement with a straight face. In order for your statement to be true... ALL Christians would have to believe the earth was created by God in the last 10K years.

You're smarter than that.