Have debt? Go to jail.

[Alarik Zekaiden]

After reading these articles, it makes me a bit worried. Not for myself, but for people I know. I had thought that you couldn't go to jail for monetary debt unless it was something extreme. Guess I was wrong.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Sm ... st=1771376

And also

http://specials.msn.com/A-List/Jailed-f ... ageindex=1

Not sure how much of this is "catastrophizing" or whatever, but with the recession still lingering around I can imagine that a lot of people are in enough debt to have collection agencies go after them using whatever means are necessary.

[Freecare Spiritwise]

ROFL my attorney in Spokane is the one being interviewed for that story. He's badass.

[Ddrak]

Nothing would surprise me about debt collectors. Abusing the law for profit is basically their job description.

Dd

[Freecare Spiritwise]

When the debt collectors are attorneys they can do all sorts of nasty tricks. Those tricks don't hold up to scrutiny but unless you properly defend yourself there is no scrutiny. That's what they're counting on. The irony is that if you were in a position to defend yourself, you probably wouldn't be sued in the first place.

What pisses me off is that they're kicking people when they are down. The primary goal of these lawsuits is to gain a default judgement so that they can immediately file for a garnishment and start taking the money (plus ridiculous legal fees) straight from people's paychecks. And what are the judges doing? Unless you defend yourself, they're doing nothing because all those lawsuits are technically valid. My attorney told me just for Spokane, just the credit card companies are filing about 100 suits a week and that's not counting the medical debt collectors.

As some of you know, about a year ago I came very close to death. I did receive first rate care, but during the process I ended up owing a shit ton of money to various people, even with my supposedly first rate health insurance. They told my wife I wasn't going to make it, so thoughts of money were the last thing on her mind and she spared no expense to make me better. Not only that, it was a long, slow recovery which incurred much more expense. Now during this long, slow recovery the carrion birds were circling and a few of them came after me. All you have to do is type in my address into google earth and take one look at my house, and to most people I look like a rich mother fucker, so to them I seemed like the perfect target. Guess again, bitches!

It's absolutely disgusting what these bloodsucking mother fuckers do. They are the lowest sort of bottom feeders. Most the victims are mainly guilty of something like a lost job or illness. Such is our crime. I haven't even told my wife this, but at a few points in the process (it's much, much better now) I almost wished that I didn't make it because of the hardship of my recovery and the cost/effort in fighting off the vultures.

[Partha]

I repeat: Are there no prisons? No workhouses?

Dickens would recognize this period instantly.

[Embar Angylwrath]

The USSC this year made a ruling the heavily favors people who are being pursued by a debt collection agency. (Note: not the original owner of the debt, but either an outside collection agency or a secondary buyer of original debt). Essentially, debt collectors can't rely on ignorance of the FDCPA as a defense. The Justices narrowed the defense to only minor clerical mistakes, excluding the defense that the law was misunderstood or misapplied by the collection agency. There's a reason why this is so beneficial to the person that has a collection action against them...

If a person wins a suit against a collection agency for violations of the FDCPA, the collection agency must pay the attorney''s fees of the Plaintiff. Since now even small technical violations of the FDCPA can be litigated, many more attorneys are now willing to take cases against collection agencies, knowing that partial win means a payday for the attorney. Based on the latest SC ruling, there's been a hot cottage industry forming for lawyers that are doing nothing but suing collection agencies. They are looking for clients left and right, since its so easy to win against a collection agency for violating one or more parts of the FDCPA.

Hopefully, this will help clean up the industry a bit. And hopefully, people who are getting pressred by a debt collector will take some time to educate themselves on the very formidable weaposn they have now to fight unscrupulous debt collectors.

[Freecare Spiritwise]

I agree. It used to be that collection agencies had no regard for the FDCPA because it would never go to court. The judge doesn't even take a little peek until the Defendant starts fighting. Now that's changing as people realize they have no choice but to fight. It's an arms race.

Collection agencies have responded to that by making it appear that the original debt owner is pursuing the defendant - not them. Remember, the FDCPA only applies to debt collectors. The original creditors can pretty much do whatever they want. And if that "veil" is in danger of being pierced, the plaintiffs just fold and move on to easier prey. They win in the long run by racking up default judgments, not by litigating. Now, who in their right mind is going to continue to fight when the Plaintiff lays down and even makes major concessions? That's what's frustrating those Defendant attorneys today. And you can't blame the defendants for taking anything resembling a win. They can't seem to pierce that veil. But it's just a matter of time, and when that happens the jig will be up for the bottom feeders.

[Embar Angylwrath]

http://www.debtorboards.com/index.php/topic,7211.0.html

I've used some of these techniques to fight a debt collection agency that was trying to collect a debt that wan't mine (my ex-wife's actually). It took three months, but I took her score from 520 to 780 by takng the time to challenge every negative mark on her report and challenge the debt that wan't hers.

By burying them in paperwork with demands for records, original contracts, original signatures, etc., they finally just gave up and removed the debt after I threatened to sue and told them I'd be going after treble damages.

[Alarik Zekaiden]

Nice. Well, that has restored my faith in humanity a little bit. I'm glad that there is some legal recourse for debtors. I know the lawyers around here won't touch you if you have any debt issues.

[Freecare Spiritwise]

Nice. Well, that has restored my faith in humanity a little bit. I'm glad that there is some legal recourse for debtors.

Debtors have lots of recourse. First and foremost, a bankruptcy will stop most of those problems in their tracks. It won't stop a garnishment once it's been granted, but it'll stop most judgements before they can go to garnishment. It's a last resort - a "nuclear option" - but still a viable option and for most people a BK is better than taking it up the ass. The (viable) threat of a BK is also a good negotiation tactic when dealing with any debt collector.

So yeah, there's lots of things a debtor can do. The problem is that most people get intimidated and fall into despair, which almost happened to me. But I can tell you first hand that fighting back is very empowering.

I know the lawyers around here won't touch you if you have any debt issues.

Really? My understanding is that unless the attorney is working on contingency, they require a good size retainer up front and once that's used up then they'll stop working if you stop paying. And bankruptcy attorneys are paid up front for obvious reasons.

[Jarochai Alabaster]

It won't stop a garnishment once it's been granted

I relatively sure this isn't entirely correct. A friend of mine was getting harassed by a debt collector for ~60k in medical bills (Emergency surgery) that he had no hope of being able to pay off. They started garnishments, he and his wife filed BK, and the garnishments stopped.

[Freecare Spiritwise]

It won't stop a garnishment once it's been granted

I relatively sure this isn't entirely correct. A friend of mine was getting harassed by a debt collector for ~60k in medical bills (Emergency surgery) that he had no hope of being able to pay off. They started garnishments, he and his wife filed BK, and the garnishments stopped.

I was actually told that by two different attorneys. The BK attorney told me to file immediately to avoid the default judgement/garnishment (making fighting it unnecessary) and the consumer advocate attorney told me to fight it out and if I lose then there'll be plenty of time to file the BK between the judgement and the garnishment. I chose the latter and so far (knock on wood) I've avoided the BK.

Maybe the law varies from state to state? I live in Washington state. Both attorneys were very clear that the only way to avoid the garnishment would be to file the BK within a few days (or was it a week or two?) of having a judgement against me. I'm also pretty sure that a garnishment is just another motion and that it can be dragged out if you fight it and it's possible to have it denied by the judge.

Maybe a good attorney can have a garnishment thrown out? I dunno. What my attorney did tell me is that most of these sleazy attorneys rarely do anything other than sign what their para-legals put in front of them and that their wages work out to several thousand dollars a minute just for signing a stack of papers every day. There's lots of mistakes and when the shit hits the fan is when they send in the "real" attorney who actually knows how to do shit, but sometimes it's too late because too many mistakes have been made. But again, I dunno. I'm just a computer guy lol.

[Embar Angylwrath]

What my attorney did tell me is that most of these sleazy attorneys rarely do anything other than sign what their para-legals put in front of them and that their wages work out to several thousand dollars a minute just for signing a stack of papers every day. There's lots of mistakes and when the shit hits the fan is when they send in the "real" attorney who actually knows how to do shit, but sometimes it's too late because too many mistakes have been made. But again, I dunno. I'm just a computer guy lol.

Yeah, that's a typical practice in many larger firms, for all elgal processdings, and one of the reasons I use smaller firms. If there are more than 5 attorneys in the firm, I don't use the firm. Currently, I use two law firms. One is a litigation law firm (always have one of those in your back pocket in business, they are the attack dogs of the lawyer world. Most lawyers say they litigate, but their strategy is to settle before they have to. A true litigation firm's strategy is always, always, always to win, and not only to win but to shatter the other opposing attorney. Unlike other companies, mine isn't afraid to litigate because of cost concerns.

The other law firm is a one-man show, and he specifically said he doens't like to litigate, and won't in fact. He's a Harvard law guy specializing in nothing but business and corporate law. He's the one that helps draft contracts, corp documents, etc.

I understand thats a completely different approach than just getting a BK attorney, but the point is, use a specialty firm that is small. You'll get better service, better law advice, and its usually cheaper.

[Ddrak]

The only real advantage a large expensive firm has is it can intimidate the hell out of a small firm, and get more settlements that way.

Dd

[Freecare Spiritwise]

The only real advantage a large expensive firm has is it can intimidate the hell out of a small firm, and get more settlements that way.

I'm going to disagree, at least with my very limited experience. My 2 man crew kicked some major ass over the huge mega-asshole-corporation that came after me.

These guys are hotter than a nickel whore on fuck night

[Freecare Spiritwise]

I finally signed the settlement papers today for my big case, yeeah boyee!

I'm allowed to say:

-- That I was sued by Capital One

-- That they settled with me

-- That they paid me an undisclosed amount

-- That they have to remove anything to do with Cap One from all three credit bureaus

They thought I'd be easy prey. Hell, I was so sick I was barely able to get out of bed when they sued me. Let this be a lesson that not everyone is going to lay down. The legal system doesn't always have to work against the consumer like in the OP.

[Ddrak]

Nice work, Freecare!

[Embar Angylwrath]

Two big thumbs up man:)