Four months

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Embar Angylwrath
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Four months

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

Home stretch for campaigns right now. With a little less than four months to go before the November elections, Democrats clearly have the larger mountain to climb. Not only do the midterms see a different voting element of the electorate (dominated by white voters) which will laregly negate Obama's ability to canvass for Dems in challenged districts (he's slipped from 60% white approval to 40%, not that he's been effective in that endevour anyway), the Dems also have the current economic mess on their plate. They're the party in power, and regardless of how we got here, the electorate, minus some very left-leaning liberals, will place this at the Dem's feet. There's not much real gain to show from the stimulus spending, and even though ivory-tower economists may agree that massive deficit spending is what we needed, that really hasn't been effectively communicated to Main Street.

Talk of how much worse it would be without the deficit spending sounds hollow to most Americans, like it or not, especially with near 10% unemployment (much higher if you count the people who just gave up looking for a job). So the Dems have moved the Social Security talking point to the top of the list. They want to warn people that the Reps want to raise the retirement age to 70, and only give SS to people that really need it, which are very sensible adjustments to a policy that came to be in the mid 1930s. And its very close to what Democrat Steny Hoyer had to say:
On the spending side, we could and should consider a higher retirement age, or one pegged to lifespan; more progressive Social Security and Medicare benefits
This is what Boehner said after suggesting that the retirement age be lifted to 70:
If you have substantial non-Social Security income while you're retired, why are we paying you at a time when we're broke? We just need to be honest with people.
To me, this sounds like wealth re-distibution. Wealthy people pay in, but they get nothing back, according to Boehner. Why the Dems would have a problem with that.. oh, I know.. ELECTION TIME. Boehner just gave the Dems a big-ass meatball pitch. Raise the SS retirement age (which is what the Dems via Hoyer want) and they get their means-testing (which is what most all Dems want)! The Dems should seize on this and hold Boehner's feet (and by association, the Reps) to the fire. They could come out of this with a HUGE win. If they call Boehner on this and say sure, we agree, lets raise the retirement age to 70 and means-test it, the Reps are locked in. The Dems gave them everything they wanted, and if the Reps balk, they'll show themselves as the obstructionist minority they are. The Dems win etiher way.

However, the Dems being what they are, they will take this golden gift the Reps just handed to them and beat themselves in the head with it. Already Dems are decrying the means-testing. After they've wanted it for years...down the rabbit hole we go...

So, les recap... the Dems plan to use the Social Security talking point in their recess meetings with constituents, saying Reps are despicable meanies for suggesting the rich shouldn't get SS in times of fiscal crisis, even though they don't need SS benefits. How DARE the Reps take money away from rich people, the Dems will imply.

The Reps, on the other hand, are going to focus on the lack of jobs, the spill in the Gulf and massive deficit spending. Clearly the Reps have the talking point advantage, and clearly the Dems have passed on opportunities to hold Reps at their word, or use their behavior against them.

Some other things both Reps and Dems have working against them.

Reps:
Seen as an obstructionist party, even with policies they themselves wanted. However easy to befuddle the masses by claiming they want to participate, and then adding non-sensical solutions to the debate, forcing Dems to wall them off, but giving enough cover to say "Hey, we tried, the Dems are just pushing a single agenda without real bipartisan efforts"

Dems:
No real financial reform in the latest bill.. economists are panning it. Sure there are cherries in the fruitcake, but its still fruitcake, And mabe those arent cherries.
Stimulus spending is sputtering out, adding to the massive deficit, and yet we still have almost 8 million jobs lost, probably forever.
China holds too much of our debt.
HAMP and HARP dismal failures, foreclosures on the rise
Bankruptcies on the rise
Stimulus spending going to dead people and convicts and we can only caulk so many windows
The worst environmental disaster in US history continues
No real direction in stimulating alternative energy (this is the key to everything, if only Obama would realize it)
By US estimates, Iran now has enough nuclear material to produce 2 bombs
Over 340 bills sent by the Dem dominated House to the Dem dominates Senate... with no action on those bills
No budget brought up for vote... not even one brought to the floor for discussion (which is the primary purpose of Congress.. pursestring, budget and spending.. and a direct violation of the letter, and intent, of the law)

The Dems certianly have their work cut out for them, but they haven't made their work any easier. Sure, they can point to healthcare reform, which is just now starting to have some of its provisions implemented. Like participating in a high risk heallthcare pool. But the easy Rep rebuttal is: What good is heathcare reform if I don't have a job to pay for it?
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Re: Four months

Post by Lurker »

Why did you misrepresent what the Democrats issue was regarding Boehner's Social Security comments? They didn't attack means testing; they accused him of wanting to alter Social Security, not to save the system, but to pay for the two wars.
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Re: Four months

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

Lurker wrote:Why did you misrepresent what the Democrats issue was regarding Boehner's Social Security comments? They didn't attack means testing; they accused him of wanting to alter Social Security, not to save the system, but to pay for the two wars.
I know thats what the headlines are saying and what the Dems are screaming, but the newspaper which did the interview specifically said he didn't link the two.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsbu ... 88102.html
Editor's note: This story has been edited from its original version. During a wide-ranging interview with the Tribune-Review, House Minority Leader John Boehner said the federal government must continue funding the war in Afghanistan to protect the nation. He also said Congress must curb spending on federal entitlements, such as Social Security to reduce the federal deficit. He did not link those issues directly.
Emphasis mine.
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Re: Four months

Post by Lurker »

I never said he did. My point was that you misrepresented what the Democrats were complaining about, not that their complaint was justified.
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Re: Four months

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

Lurker wrote:Why did you misrepresent what the Democrats issue was regarding Boehner's Social Security comments? They didn't attack means testing; they accused him of wanting to alter Social Security, not to save the system, but to pay for the two wars.
I never said he did
Not quite following you here. You said Boehner wanted to alter SS to pay for two wars. I gave you evidence that he didn't link the two. Then you said you never said that. /boggle
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Re: Four months

Post by Lurker »

Let me walk you through it...

1) You claimed in your original post that Democrats were attacking Boehner over means testing for Social Security. You spent a good portion of the original post on this.

2) I asked why you misrepresented what Democrats said, pointing out that they accused Boehner of wanting to alter Social Security to pay for two wars and that the complaints had nothing to do with means testing.

3) You responded by trying to prove that Boehner didn't actually link changes with Social Security with the wars, which wasn't my point.

Hope that clears this up for you.

So... back to my original question. Why did you misrepresent what the Democrats issue was regarding Boehner's Social Security comments?
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Re: Four months

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

Here... let me help you through this....

Dems claimed Boehner wanted to jack with SS to offset war funding.

Boehner didn't say that. What Boehner DID say was that we should not be paying SS to people who don't need it when in a financial crisis and alos we should lift the retirement age (things that Dems have wanted).

Dems then attacked him for suggesting those solutions (which are Dem suggestions as well), and made the argument about how Reps wanted to undermine SS, when actually the current Reps suggestion was what they've wanted all along.

(And most of my post wasn't about the incident... you know that. Its how about the Dems missed a golden opportunity to actually call out the Reps on a key issue they wanted and get some legislation moving to get it)
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Re: Four months

Post by Lurker »

This is really simple, Embar.

Why did you spend half your original post claiming that the Democrats were attacking Boehner over means testing for Social Security? Why did you misrepresent what they said?

Can you answer that?
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Re: Four months

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

This is very simple Lurker, I didn't misrepresent what they said. They misrepresented what Boehner had to say. I hope someday you can grasp that.

As for me, this is what I said in the post regarding this particular topic. As you can see, much of it was spent pondering why Dems didn't take advantage of Boehners statements to get some of the changes they wanted.
They want to warn people that the Reps want to raise the retirement age to 70, and only give SS to people that really need it, which are very sensible adjustments to a policy that came to be in the mid 1930s. And its very close to what Democrat Steny Hoyer had to say:
On the spending side, we could and should consider a higher retirement age, or one pegged to lifespan; more progressive Social Security and Medicare benefits

This is what Boehner said after suggesting that the retirement age be lifted to 70:
If you have substantial non-Social Security income while you're retired, why are we paying you at a time when we're broke? We just need to be honest with people.To me, this sounds like wealth re-distibution. Wealthy people pay in, but they get nothing back, according to Boehner. Why the Dems would have a problem with that.. oh, I know.. ELECTION TIME. Boehner just gave the Dems a big-ass meatball pitch. Raise the SS retirement age (which is what the Dems via Hoyer want) and they get their means-testing (which is what most all Dems want)! The Dems should seize on this and hold Boehner's feet (and by association, the Reps) to the fire. They could come out of this with a HUGE win. If they call Boehner on this and say sure, we agree, lets raise the retirement age to 70 and means-test it, the Reps are locked in. The Dems gave them everything they wanted, and if the Reps balk, they'll show themselves as the obstructionist minority they are. The Dems win etiher way.
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Re: Four months

Post by Lurker »

Here's the part of your original post that misrepresented the Democrats complaint about what Boehner said. I've underlined all your direct misrepresentations about means testing.
Embar wrote:So the Dems have moved the Social Security talking point to the top of the list. They want to warn people that the Reps want to raise the retirement age to 70, and only give SS to people that really need it, which are very sensible adjustments to a policy that came to be in the mid 1930s. And its very close to what Democrat Steny Hoyer had to say:
On the spending side, we could and should consider a higher retirement age, or one pegged to lifespan; more progressive Social Security and Medicare benefits
This is what Boehner said after suggesting that the retirement age be lifted to 70:
If you have substantial non-Social Security income while you're retired, why are we paying you at a time when we're broke? We just need to be honest with people.
To me, this sounds like wealth re-distibution. Wealthy people pay in, but they get nothing back, according to Boehner. Why the Dems would have a problem with that.. oh, I know.. ELECTION TIME. Boehner just gave the Dems a big-ass meatball pitch. Raise the SS retirement age (which is what the Dems via Hoyer want) and they get their means-testing (which is what most all Dems want)! The Dems should seize on this and hold Boehner's feet (and by association, the Reps) to the fire. They could come out of this with a HUGE win. If they call Boehner on this and say sure, we agree, lets raise the retirement age to 70 and means-test it, the Reps are locked in. The Dems gave them everything they wanted, and if the Reps balk, they'll show themselves as the obstructionist minority they are. The Dems win etiher way.

However, the Dems being what they are, they will take this golden gift the Reps just handed to them and beat themselves in the head with it. Already Dems are decrying the means-testing. After they've wanted it for years...down the rabbit hole we go...

So, les recap... the Dems plan to use the Social Security talking point in their recess meetings with constituents, saying Reps are despicable meanies for suggesting the rich shouldn't get SS in times of fiscal crisis, even though they don't need SS benefits. How DARE the Reps take money away from rich people, the Dems will imply.
So, instead of just admitting you made a mistake we go around and around and around. And now you are lying about what you originally posted. You repeatedly claimed that Democrats were decrying means testing. Everyone can see it right there. Can you try to be more honest?
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Re: Four months

Post by Kulaf »

Embar what Lurker is saying is that he knows the Dems are lying about it.....he is just upset that you didn't say they were lying.
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Re: Four months

Post by Lurker »

yuk yuk

That's not what I'm saying. If Embar had said that Democrats were misrepresenting what Boehner said, I'd have no argument with that. But that's not what Embar said in his original post. He lied (or was misinformed) and said repeatedly that Democrats were decrying means testing when they were not.
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Re: Four months

Post by Harlowe »

I don't see the confusion. Lurker is not saying the Dem's weren't being misleading, he's saying why is Embar misrepresenting their original argument.
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Re: Four months

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

Harlowe wrote:I don't see the confusion. Lurker is not saying the Dem's weren't being misleading, he's saying why is Embar misrepresenting their original argument.
What was their original argument?

And whatever their original argument was, why would they use to throw stumbling blocks in their own road? That's the main thrust of my point. By misrepresenting what Boehner said and tying it to threats to SS, when they have to back away from the lie, the question becomes... why lie when they had a senior Reps agreement that changes the Dems wanted made were sound???

THAT's what they should have pounced on, is my point.
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Re: Four months

Post by Lurker »

Embar wrote:What was their original argument?
Maybe you should have figured that out before spending half your original post misrepresenting it.

"Why would the Dems have a problem with means testing!", "Already Dems are decrying the means-testing", "How DARE the Reps take money away from rich people, the Dems will imply."

All fabrications on your part.

Then you and Kulaf seemingly lost all ability to reason and couldn't comprehend a simple dialog.

You claimed Democrats said 'A'. I asked why you said 'A' when they really said 'B'. Gee... that was too complex to follow!
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Re: Four months

Post by Kulaf »

Hey don't blame me for your lack of clairty and Embar's inability to understand same.
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Re: Four months

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

Now that the nits have been throughly picked.. care to comment on the substance of the post? What do you see the hurdles of the Dems and Reps as we approach the November elections? ANd what are thier strengths? Sure, all politics are local, but in my mind this is going to come down to the motivated voter, and in tight districts, thats the swing voter, the one that doesn't vote straight party line.
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Re: Four months

Post by Lurker »

That nit was half your original post and it was a complete fabrication on your part. You aren't honest enough to admit it.

Your list of "things both Reps and Dems have working against them" was equally stupid. The list for Democrats was a mix of things that aren't accurate or are directly attibutable to Republican obstruction or are so insignificant that nobody's ever heard of it. "Stimulus spending going to dead people and convicts"? What chain email or right-wing blog alerted you to this non-issue that will have zero affect on the election? Including stuff like that in your stream of consciousness rants makes you look absurd.
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Re: Four months

Post by Fallakin Kuvari »

Lurker wrote: or are so insignificant that nobody's ever heard of it. "Stimulus spending going to dead people and convicts"?
Were you living under a rock back in March/April?
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Re: Four months

Post by Lurker »

Fallakin wrote:
Lurker wrote:or are so insignificant that nobody's ever heard of it. "Stimulus spending going to dead people and convicts"? What chain email or right-wing blog alerted you to this non-issue that will have zero affect on the election?
Were you living under a rock back in March/April?
Hey, it's the wingnut!

Can you link to some news stories from March/April about stimulus going to dead people and convicts? What percentage of the stimulus was involved? Do you really think this is going to affect the election in November?
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