Israel?

[Ddrak]

That said, I sympathasize with the Israelis on certain aspects of their existence. If they lifted the embargo, does anyone on this board really beleive weapons wouldn't flood into the area? Its the whole reason Egypt cooperates with border control. They know that open borders means an influx in weapons to the Palestinians, which means a destabilization on their own borders (and a massive refugee crisis into Egypt should Israel level Gaza.. which they would if they were attacked.) The Egyptions are no friend of Israel. They cooperate because they have no choice if they want stable borders.

I find it hard to sympathize with either side. Israel continually and very deliberately provokes and demeans Palestinians through their carving up the country with fenced highways and settlements, requiring the Palestinians to continually subject themselves to IDF checks if they want to move about. It really doesn't take much of that sort of systemic oppression to foster a thriving terrorist culture.

The Palestinians then embrace the terrorism even when given opportunities to break free. Neither side stops their bullshit and both blame the other in the vicious cycle.

Face it - the embargo hasn't worked. Hamas is still in charge, missiles still fly around, terrorists still infiltrate southern Israel and blow shit up and bombing the crap out of Gaza while preventing any sort of dual purpose construction material (which is practically anything given enough imagination) just breeds more terrorists. I don't know of a simple solution, but the unconditional support of Israel from the US isn't going to fix things - Israel just takes it for granted that it can do whatever the hell it pleases. Like I said - a spoiled brat and a bully.

I'm harshest on Israel when I post because they have the means and economic strength to get over themselves. They're "supposed" to be the good guys, and should be the good guys but then time and time again prove themselves incapable of that title. When they stop building settlements and start treating Palestinians better than cattle then maybe they'll deserve respect. After that - hell, maybe the Palestinians will prove themselves worthy of a little respect too, but I think I hope for too much there.

Oh, and here comes more blockade breakers: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_TURKEY_ISRAEL

Dd

[Partha]

What do you mean, ghettoes don't work?

[Embar Angylwrath]

Dd... perhaps you have lost sight on the history of Israel?

Treaty of Balfour?
Several attempts to eradicate Israel in the 60's and 70's from Muslim nations?
Israel is under constant attack from Muslim nation proxies vis-a-vis Hamas (where are they getting the rockets, guns, mortars, etc??)

Look, I don't agree with Israel's bungling of the flotilla, but I certainly have sympathy for them. Since inception, Muslim nations have been trying to destroy them. Do you disagree with that?

[Fallakin Kuvari]

I've seen the videos, I think the IDF soldiers were completely justified.

That said, it was going to end bad to begin with as the boat had no intention on stopping to be checked... it had a mission of "martyrdom or breaking the blockade" from launch.

[Ddrak]

Dd... perhaps you have lost sight on the history of Israel?

Treaty of Balfour?
Several attempts to eradicate Israel in the 60's and 70's from Muslim nations?
Israel is under constant attack from Muslim nation proxies vis-a-vis Hamas (where are they getting the rockets, guns, mortars, etc??)

Look, I don't agree with Israel's bungling of the flotilla, but I certainly have sympathy for them. Since inception, Muslim nations have been trying to destroy them. Do you disagree with that?

It goes two ways. Since inception of the state of Israel in 1947, Israel has resisted the formation of the Arab state that was contained in the same UN mandate:



How much of that yellow area is occupied by Israeli settlements these days?

Yes, the neighboring Arab states have attacked Israel on and off for 50 odd years, but to say that "Muslim nations have been trying to destroy them" is pretty wide of the mark. Some Muslim nations have certainly supported hostilities and terror campaigns but you can hardly say there's any serious chance Hamas could "destroy Israel". Muslim states are trying to "destroy Israel" in about the same way the US and USSR were trying to "destroy" each other during the cold war - rhetoric, proxy wars, assassinations and terror.

Do I sympathize with a state that lowers itself to the same level as the terrorists that attack it while at the same time tries to take both the "good guy" and "victim" mentality? Hell no. I don't think I've lost sight of the history of Israel - perhaps you're not comparing and contrasting it with the history of Palestine?

That said, it was going to end bad to begin with as the boat had no intention on stopping to be checked... it had a mission of "martyrdom or breaking the blockade" from launch.

What makes you say that? Why don't you think the other 5 had the same mission, or did you forget there were 6 boats?

The video clearly shows the IDF going down a rope into a hostile crowd. That is just fucking stupid from any military standpoint. There is no justification to send the first soldier down into that, and he's the poor bastard I really feel sorry for.

Dd

[Lurker]

That said, it was going to end bad to begin with as the boat had no intention on stopping to be checked... it had a mission of "martyrdom or breaking the blockade" from launch.

What makes you say that? Why don't you think the other 5 had the same mission, or did you forget there were 6 boats?

The organizers of the flotilla made it clear the intent was to break the blockade, and three out of the nine dead apparently dreamt of martyrdom. As to why that one ship and not the other five? The ship that refused to comply had 581 people on board; none of the others had more than 30.

But so what. The entire blockade was wrong from the start, the siege needs to end, settlement expansion needs to end, and I agree with everything else you said on the topic.

[Partha]

Might be too soon, but this puts it all into perspective:

[Fallakin Kuvari]

The entire blockade was wrong from the start

How so?

Are you claiming that Israel doesn't have the authority to enforce a blockade so that they can stop some of the weaponry from coming in?

[Kulaf]

That partition plan is moot because the Arab leaders never accepted it. And once again England screwed the pooch and left us with yet another untennable boundry.

[Ddrak]

The entire blockade was wrong from the start

How so?

Are you claiming that Israel doesn't have the authority to enforce a blockade so that they can stop some of the weaponry from coming in?

If it was just weaponry there wouldn't be an issue. It's the fact they're bombing the crap out of Gaza while blocking supply of building materials while apparently completely failing to block the weaponry. The current blockade isn't serving any useful military purpose aside from the over-zealous oppression of the Gaza populous, which in turn just generates more people that are quite willing to blow themselves up should they get near a few dozen Israeli citizens. It's why practically every nation on earth except the US is calling for its end.


And just for the record, Partha's Fast-Rope 101 is win.

Dd

[Fallakin Kuvari]

I doubt they're failing to block all of the weaponry.

[Embar Angylwrath]

It is of importance to note the blockade would be lifted immediately if Iranian-backed Hamas renounced violence and recognized Israel, which they have yet to do. Israel isn't going away. The beginning of the solution to peace in that region, if there is going to be peace, has to start with the removal of Hamas.

[Ddrak]

The blockade would probably end if Hamas returned the soldier they captured. It might even end if they allowed the Red Cross to visit him. There's no way I'm defending Hamas in this, but the punishment of everyone in Gaza for Hamas' action isn't an equitable response on Israel's part.

Peace cannot start with Hamas - that's just ignoring the political reality of the situation. It has to start with Israel, and has to start with them pulling back from their "if you hurt us, we'll hurt you an order of magnitude more" philosophy because it just doesn't work and only serves to give MORE support to terrorism. When people actually vote in a terrorist organization as their government, you have to take a step back and ask what's led them to that level of anger and despair. When people vote in terrorist organizations the entire US philosophy of protecting democracy is shot to hell as well, which only makes things worse.

The blockade as it currently stands simply has to end because preventing construction materials entering a region you bombed the crap out of while forcing the 5 million residents to stay inside is never going to achieve any sort of positive result.

Israel is working hard to lose the battle for hearts and minds everywhere. It's not a long-term sustainable policy and if they continue too long then ultimately Israel will just go away, probably within a year of pissing off the US enough to lose the support of their sugar-daddy.

Dd

[Partha]

The blockade would probably end if Hamas returned the soldier they captured. It might even end if they allowed the Red Cross to visit him. There's no way I'm defending Hamas in this, but the punishment of everyone in Gaza for Hamas' action isn't an equitable response on Israel's part.

Wrong.

JERUSALEM — As Israel ordered a slight easing of its blockade of the Gaza Strip Wednesday, McClatchy obtained an Israeli government document that describes the blockade not as a security measure but as "economic warfare" against the Islamist group Hamas, which rules the Palestinian territory.

The Israeli government took an additional step Wednesday and said the economic warfare is intended to achieve a political goal. A government spokesman, who couldn't be named as a matter of policy, told McClatchy that authorities will continue to ease the blockade but "could not lift the embargo altogether as long as Hamas remains in control" of Gaza.

[Embar Angylwrath]

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LDE65D0HG.htm

Is Iran intentionally trying to get bombed???

[Partha]

Israel would be incredibly stupid if they tried a bombing raid now.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Israel would be incredibly stupid if they tried a bombing raid now.

Really?

I can see a good case for blasting the shit out of Iran right now.

1. Israel has the capability;
2. Saudi Arabia recently gave a "clear skies" overflight corridor to Israel allowing Israel to fly over the Kingdom airspace for the purposes of bombing Iran (thus giving Arab/Muslim support to Israel in this respect)
3. Israel's world opinion can't sink much lower unless they start roasting Palestinian babies on a spit, so why not get all the nastiness out of the way now
4. Iran is intentionally provoking Israel
5. Iran can't hit Israel like Israel can hit Iran
6. Israel has nukes
7. Iran doesn't (yet) and the strike would set Iran back in its timeline to procure nukes
8. Israel would have access to US intel and support (not that they need it)
9. Iran would stand alone in the Muslim world, with the exception of some chest thumping jihadist calling Imams (so what else is new to Israel)
10. The Arab/Muslim world doesn't want Iran to have nukes almost as badly as Israel and the US don't want them to have nukes.

The most telling aspect of this is Saudi Arabia's granting of clear skies to Israel. The funny thing is the US hasn't granted overflight of Iraq (via the US controlled Iraqi government). Israel may just push the issue and dare the US to shoot down one of its jets.. but I doubt it. Israel depends on the US for too much support. However, if the US DOES grant overflight of Iraq, expect the Israelis to bomb the fuck out of Iran.

Hopefully they contain damage to Iranian CinC and infrastructure. The Iranian people don't deserve this, but the leaders do.

[Ddrak]

Saudi Arabia never granted Israel any sort of "free skies" policy to attack Iran. It's just the British press stirring shit.

link

Iran isn't escorting the ships, so they'll just get intercepted the same as anything else and probably won't put up much resistance. The way things are going, the EU will probably be the ones intercepting anyway.

The US doesn't control the Iraqi government. In fact, no one controls the Iraqi government and it looks like about 3 months before any sort of decision from them on pretty much anything will be possible. There is no possible way that they would grant Israel any airspace and if the US tried to allow it then you can be damn sure they would be tossed out of their bases by rioting mobs. Iran has far more control of Iraq than the US does right now (who do you think is sponsoring Allawi?)

Israel actively attacking Iran would result in complete political hell in the area, and the US wouldn't be able to adequately respond on any front. Israel's smarter than that (not much, but they are smarter). I don't even want to think too hard about the results because I really can't imagine anything but long-term positives for Iran and long-term negatives for Israel.

Dd

[Ddrak]

Better explanation on why Riyadh would never allow Israel free passage:

http://aawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=2&id=21299

Dd

[Partha]

I can see Embar's case for bombing Iran from here.

1) They're brown
2) They hate America
3) Even if they don't hate America, they looked at it funny
4) Plus, brown people shouldn't have technology and stuff