Constitutional challenge to the health care reform bill...

[Lurker]

You are simply wrong on the facts. Penalties from the individual mandate were only estimated to produce a few billion per year in revenue. Even if that provision is struck down and Congress fails to enact something different the funding mechanisms won't be affected. The bill will still reduce the deficit.

Also, people who "don't pay taxes" would likely not be required to purchase coverage due to their low income. Those costs were already factored in.

The mandate is there to prevent an insurance death spiral in the individual market where healthy people simply wait till they get sick before getting insurance. You make a fine argument in favor of a strong mandate, although I'm sure that wasn't your intention.

I'm almost tempted to cancel the health insurance my company pays for its employees just to prove a point, but I'd rather do the right thing, even if the elected representatives won't.

What point would you be proving? Your situation when reform is fully implemented will be much better than it was without reform. And if you do decide to just cancel coverage your employees will be much better off now than they would have been without reform. So I'm not following you at all.

[Ddrak]

If the mandate gets struck down then the smart thing to do would be introduce a tax levy on those who don't have insurance (which is pretty much equivalent).

Dd

[Embar Angylwrath]

If the mandate gets struck down then the smart thing to do would be introduce a tax levy on those who don't have insurance (which is pretty much equivalent).

Dd

Thats expressly prohibited in the bill. There is no real penalty for not buying insurance, other than to have your tax refund garnished by the IRS.

@Lurker - Consider this scenario (because its a very likely one). Once this thing gets moving, most small businesses just might stop funding the insurance for their employees. But they wom't increase their wages. So now, these employees have go buy on the market, through the exchanges. How many do you think are going to purchase insurance? Probably only those that have to, and those that get a subsidy to do so. The unintended consequence of this law may result in more people left without coverage, since there is no teeth in the requirement to purchase insurance.

But, you may say, companies get a tax credit for offering insurance to employees. Well, I've analyzed that for my company. The rules are so complex, and so ill defined, and so scaled, that there is almost no benefit to my company, after all of scaling is factored in. And, I might add, most small businesses (the ones that employ the majority of Americans) are set up as S Corps or LLCs structured as S Corps, which are flow through entities to the shareholders, meaning that taxes are not paid by the company itself, but by the shareholders. In this set up, most companies disgorge all the profits to the shareholders at the end of the year, either in pay or profit distributions, so there is no profit left over to be taxed. My point... is that a tax reduction to a small business for offering health care to employees is meaningless, since small businesses don't pay much in tax. (The owners pay the tax through income and self-employment taxes)

[Lurker]

Thats expressly prohibited in the bill. There is no real penalty for not buying insurance, other than to have your tax refund garnished by the IRS.

There's nothing in the bill preventing Congress from enacting new legislation. If the individual mandate as it's currently written gets struck down (extremely unlikely), Congress can enact a more "tax like" mandate. That's what Ddrak was saying.

Consider this scenario (because its a very likely one). Once this thing gets moving, most small businesses just might stop funding the insurance for their employees. But they wom't increase their wages.

There was nothing stopping employers from doing that before reform. At least now some will get tax credits. And all employers still get a huge subsidy from the Government for offering insurance because the benefits are tax exempt. But hey, cancel your companies insurance and don't increase your employees wages. Show those evil liberals a thing or two! At least now employees who don't get insurance from their job have an insurance exchange to maximize their buying power and subsidies to help pay if they don't earn much.

there is almost no benefit to my company

In other words, even when only looking at the tax credits for small businesses there is at least some benefit for your company.

The situation for everyone involved is better than it was. Your attack on reform makes no sense.

[Partha]

Christ, when did Embar turn into such a passive-aggressive pile of victimization? I can just imagine him now, as he stops offering insurance for his workers. 'Look what you made me do!'.

I guess we should be glad he doesn't beat his wife with the same excuse? Maybe?

[Erinos Wrysing]

Hey dudes! We have health care now unless the rest of you are living in some crap hole third world country! Ask the Canadians what they think of Canada care. They think the US is crazy. They come here for health care! All we needed was to clean up what we have, not reinvent and have big government dictating what kind of care we get! What happened to logic and common sense? I understand because I know that socialism is a form of mental disorder. Things are looking up when tea parties are happening in the gay bay. That's another thing! The radical left is trying to dirty up the tea party movement with lies. I've been to many of them and all I've seen is normal happy well adjusted every day Americans expressing their patriotism. It's a smiling happy crowd, unlike a screaming and angry half naked gay parade. Ha ha ha! At least the gay parades are a form of cheap entertainment.

[Lurker]

Was that satire?

If so, it was funny but a little overdone with too many wingnut talking points and ignorant assertions in such a small paragraph. If it wasn't satire... wow, because you make the boards resident Beck fanboy look sane and thoughtful by comparison.

[Ddrak]

@Erinos:
Uh, what?

First of all, the US does have health care but it really isn't a very good system for the amount you pay for it. The simple fact is the health care system in the US is tragically broken and killing more Americans than terrorism ever did. Whether you think the recent bill will improve any of that is certainly a matter for debate but slamming your hands over your eyes and trying to pretend that everything's ok is just ignorant and stupid.

Ask Canadians what they think? I have plenty of times - they think they'd like more choices but they're glad they aren't in the US. They certainly don't go to the US for health care unless they're in the top few percent of income earners with cash to burn and looking to jump the queues. Someone's been feeding you lies if you seriously think the quality of health care in Canada is worse than the US across the board.

The "tea party" movement is interesting. With the US electoral system it can only benefit the Democrats in the long run unless they all just roll over and jump back into bed with the GOP. There's really no need for the left to "tarnish them with lies", despite the number of lies I've seen coming out of the movement. What I don't get is how they can possibly take themselves seriously with Palin running around promoting it. To me, that would be an awesome cue to get the fuck out right the hell now. They may be full of normal everyday Americans expressing patriotism, but the problem right there is that they should have engaged their brain first and really thought about things first. Just ask yourself - what do you think they hope to achieve in 2012 and how is what they are doing really going to achieve that? (Hint: it isn't - they're being duped).

Of course, the fact you have to compare the tea party movement to a San Francisco gay parade in order to make yourself feel good says far more than anything I could possibly tell you, but I'll leave that to go right over your head.

Don't forget: When people cut the ass out of your poorly formed rant just keep telling yourself whatever you need to in order to prop up your imaginary socialist bogeymen, it's your right!

Dd

[Embar Angylwrath]

Lurker -

Benefits are already tax exempt (actually, the term you're looking for is an expense) for a business. Just like any other expense, they are used to adjust income in a proft/loss calculation. There is no huge benefit for businesses here.

What's stopping them now from droppng people? Competitive pressure. But if enough companies drop coverage at the same time, that competitve pressure is diminished.

CBO estimated a 4 billion income stream from the fines. But if only a fraction ever get collected, that money isn't there. Last I checked, 4 billion is a shit-ton of money.

As to the Congress adding a law to make a punitive tax because someone didn't purchase something... you really think that will happen? Any lawmaker that supports a punishment tax (which will largely fall on the middle class) will see his/her career in politics ended in a few short timeframe.

At Partha - I said that no matter what my feelings are about the governments handling of this, I'm still offering coverage to employees and will continue to do so. As I've said before on this board, my company pays (in most cases) 100% of the premuims for healthcare for my emlloyees. They have about a $25 co-pay and thats it. I don't do it for a competitive advantage, I do it because its the right thing to do. I could offer a much less expensive healthcare program and save about 100K a year, and/or require the employee to pick up a portion of the costs, but I don't. Again, I do it because its the right thing to do.

On top of that, my company has a Wellness Benefit, which is fancy words for "we pay for people's gym memberships". Nothing required by law, but because I think a healthy employee is important not only to my company, but to their families and to society. So, uh, no victume here my friend.

[Lurker]

Benefits are already tax exempt

I know. That's why I said "employers still get a huge subsidy... because benefits are tax exempt". That government subsidy provides incentive for employers to offer part of an employees compensation in the form of health coverage, as your business does.

What's stopping them now from droppng people? Competitive pressure. But if enough companies drop coverage at the same time, that competitve pressure is diminished.

And the same thing was true prior to the Affordable Care Act becoming law. So what are you waiting for? Why aren't you dropping your employees health coverage.

CBO estimated a 4 billion income stream from the fines. But if only a fraction ever get collected, that money isn't there. Last I checked, 4 billion is a shit-ton of money.

Your claim wasn't that there would be 4 billion less revenue per year. It was that "OMG reform won't pay for itself!!!", which it clearly still would and then some. Even if none of the cost control methods in the legislation work and we get zero revenue from the mandate penalty, the CBO estimates the law would reduce the deficit by 120 billion in the first decade and over a trillion in the following one.

As to the Congress adding a law to make a punitive tax because someone didn't purchase something... you really think that will happen?

It did happen. We're now talking about Congress slightly altering the details of implementation in the extremely unlikely case the current mandate provisions are ruled unconstitutional.

============

I'd also add that you should probably check with a professional to see what benefit the new legislation has for your company. You are notoriously bad about things related to taxes and business.

[Embar Angylwrath]

@ Lurker

You seemed to insinutate that businesses get some kind of extrodinary boon out of this. They don't. Nothing materially changes for them. Do you agree?


As to employers keeping/dropping coverage.. don't be naive. The political climate has changed. It will be very easy for businesses to drop coverage, and because no one but policy wonks know the workings of the bill, businesses can easily blame it on Dems and Obamacare. How many Americans, porportionally, do you think actually read and understand the bill? This is a perfect opportunity for many businesses to adjust costs and take advantage of the confusion. I doubt manty Americans can even name the Affordable Care Act...

As too the reduction of the deficit... whatever your figures are, subtract about 4 billion per year. Because thats what will leak through for people dodging the system. Face it, Congress put no teeth into the penalty part, and they never will. No way will Congress enact a Punishment Tax for this, not if the Distinguished Members want to keep their jobs.

And as to your last quote... you take up smoking meth? Congress did not adequately address people who don't get insurance. There is no real penalty, I don't know how you could argue otherwise. No garnishment of wages, no liens, nothing. Simply a reduction of any tax refund. Thats... it... Nothing punitive about that at all.

[Lurker]

You seemed to insinutate that businesses get some kind of extrodinary boon out of this. They don't. Nothing materially changes for them. Do you agree?

Most small businesses will see a significant tax credit and a new marketplace to purchase insurance, and all businesses retain the sizable government subsidy they get for providing some employee compensation in the form of health benefits. You seem to be implying that businesses are worse off because of the new law when they clearly aren't.

As too the reduction of the deficit... whatever your figures are, subtract about 4 billion per year. Because thats what will leak through for people dodging the system.

As I said, even if we collect zero in penalties the ACA still reduces the deficit by 120 billion over the first decade and a trillion in the following one.

Face it, Congress put no teeth into the penalty part, and they never will. No way will Congress enact a Punishment Tax for this, not if the Distinguished Members want to keep their jobs.

Are you in favor of a stronger individual mandate?

As to employers keeping/dropping coverage.. don't be naive. The political climate has changed. It will be very easy for businesses to drop coverage
...
businesses can easily blame it on Dems and Obamacare
...
This is a perfect opportunity for many businesses to adjust costs and take advantage of the confusion.

If this is the perfect opportunity for you to adjust costs and stick it to Obama and the Democrats, why aren't you dropping coverage for your employees? You either have a very cynical and negative view of every small businessman but yourself, or you are engaging in childish posturing.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Clearly you haven't read or understood my posts.

As to you last question... I offer coverage to my employees because I feel its the right thing to do. You can refresh yourself on the reasons, they are all there if you care to read them.

On the benefits to businesses on offering coverage... you clearly don't understand the details of the supposed benefits,,, I have a small business, and those so-called "benefits" are just lipstick on a pig. Feel free though to outline a path to some kind of substantial benefit... I and my my company's acountant will thank you. Neither of us have seen any additional benefit (It's all due to scaling, employee wages and a whole bunh of other complicated factoring issues.. but hey, you know more than the accountants... right??)

And if we aren't collecting 4 billion dollars per year over ten years... thats 40 billion dollars... and what percentage of the total funding is that??

[Lurker]

Right, Embar. Every businessman but you is going to drop coverage so they can stick it to Obama. Only you are doing the "right thing". As I said, you either have a very cynical and negative view of every small businessman but yourself, you don't understand how employee compensation works, or you are engaging in childish posturing.

Anyways, are you claiming that your company doesn't qualify for any tax credits under the new law and that you don't qualify to participate in the Exchange? Given your past statements about company size you should. Or are you just saying you won't see "substantial benefit" which would mean that you are still seeing some benefit. Government assistance from the ACA wasn't big enough for you? You certainly haven't made, or even attempted to make a case that you are worse off.

I'm having a really hard time figuring out what you're whining about.

[Ddrak]

Congress did not adequately address people who don't get insurance. There is no real penalty, I don't know how you could argue otherwise. No garnishment of wages, no liens, nothing. Simply a reduction of any tax refund. Thats... it... Nothing punitive about that at all.

You realize that the average tax refund is well in excess of the penalty, so I'm not sure why your claiming there's "nothing punitive".

Source: http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/pub/irs-soi/07in02ar.xls

Remember people that "don't pay taxes" still get tax returns. In any case, non-payment of the defaults would have been factored into to the CBO's 4b/yr estimate so arguing it's not "real" doesn't make any sense.

Edit: The IRS can still freeze bank accounts and forcibly remove money if you fail to pay, and your return wasn't sufficient to withhold. The bill only provides for no criminal penalties and no liens against property.

Dd

[Erinos Wrysing]

Was that satire?

If so, it was funny but a little overdone with too many wingnut talking points and ignorant assertions in such a small paragraph. If it wasn't satire... wow, because you make the boards resident Beck fanboy look sane and thoughtful by comparison.

Dude! Don't bother to try to comprehend or interpret intentions of something that may be beyond you. You live on a message board vaguely connected to an old and obsolete MMO. I on the other hand will be traveling to the Las Vegas area in a few months as a voting delegate at the State Republican Convention. My one little vote wields more power than anything in your rose tinted make believe fantasy world. By the way, clean the goo off those rose tinted glasses and stop embarrassing yourself. Instead, go out pick up a six pack. It's ok if you piss your pants. You'll feel better and don't call me in the morning...

Doctor Moon

[Ddrak]

OH NOES - HE HAS A VOTE AT A STATE GOP CONVENTION. NOW I'LL NEVER GET MY EPIC!

[Erinos Wrysing]

@Erinos:
Uh, what?

First of all, the US does have health care but it really isn't a very good system for the amount you pay for it. The simple fact is the health care system in the US is tragically broken and killing more Americans than terrorism ever did. Whether you think the recent bill will improve any of that is certainly a matter for debate but slamming your hands over your eyes and trying to pretend that everything's ok is just ignorant and stupid.

Ask Canadians what they think? I have plenty of times - they think they'd like more choices but they're glad they aren't in the US. They certainly don't go to the US for health care unless they're in the top few percent of income earners with cash to burn and looking to jump the queues. Someone's been feeding you lies if you seriously think the quality of health care in Canada is worse than the US across the board.

The "tea party" movement is interesting. With the US electoral system it can only benefit the Democrats in the long run unless they all just roll over and jump back into bed with the GOP. There's really no need for the left to "tarnish them with lies", despite the number of lies I've seen coming out of the movement. What I don't get is how they can possibly take themselves seriously with Palin running around promoting it. To me, that would be an awesome cue to get the fuck out right the hell now. They may be full of normal everyday Americans expressing patriotism, but the problem right there is that they should have engaged their brain first and really thought about things first. Just ask yourself - what do you think they hope to achieve in 2012 and how is what they are doing really going to achieve that? (Hint: it isn't - they're being duped).

Of course, the fact you have to compare the tea party movement to a San Francisco gay parade in order to make yourself feel good says far more than anything I could possibly tell you, but I'll leave that to go right over your head.

Don't forget: When people cut the ass out of your poorly formed rant just keep telling yourself whatever you need to in order to prop up your imaginary socialist bogeymen, it's your right!

Dd

The above is a wonderous example of extreme marxist propaganda. The loon fantasy smelly excrement speaks loudly for itself and certainly does not require dissecting and what's more, would not go over even if one flew over the cuckoo's nest and crash landed. /sad

[Ddrak]

The above is a wonderous example of extreme marxist propaganda. The loon fantasy smelly excrement speaks loudly for itself and certainly does not require dissecting and what's more, would not go over even if one flew over the cuckoo's nest and crash landed. /sad

Yes, yes. It's all Marxist propaganda. The stats showing less Americans had good health care than any other first world nation were all just lies. The life expectancy of Americans being lower than most of the first world was just a figment of a fevered imagination. You got me cold. From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs, eh comrade?

You just keep believing that and I expect things will all be just peachy.

Dd

[Lurker]

I on the other hand will be traveling to the Las Vegas area in a few months as a voting delegate at the State Republican Convention. My one little vote wields more power than anything in your rose tinted make believe fantasy world.

One vote? That's lame. I get two votes (and up to "as many as needed") at the State Democratic Convention.