The Bet (for Dd and Lurker)

Dumbass pinko-nazi-neoconservative-hippy-capitalists.
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Embar Angylwrath
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The Bet (for Dd and Lurker)

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

First submission...

George Erdel, Democrat running for the Tennessee 6th District Congressional seat, opposes the healthbill, wants to strip/radically reduce the provisions if elected.

From his website...

As I discuss this issue let me make a foundational statement about our health care delivery system. Our existing U.S. healthcare system is the absolute best in the world, that much is undisputable. Could it be improved upon? By all means, anything can be made better and our health care delivery system is no exception. We fondly look back to the “Good Old Days” and remember how little we seemed to pay for things we need for every day living expenses and health care is probably at the top of the list. What we seldom think of is the amount of involvement by the Federal Government has contributed to the steep rise in health care costs. Folks, when the U.S. Government requires those providing health care and insurance to do it to their specifications, which includes restrictions and mandates, it forces prices to rise. For example when they require hospitals to provide health care to illegal aliens whose mere presence in our state is a violation of Federal and State law, when they have no means of paying for the services rendered, someone has to pay for those services. Who else is there to pay for them but you, through your insurance and even taxpayer dollars which subsidize so much of the medical industry?



Other government involvement prevents medical insurance companies from competition in every state throughout the entire country. Free enterprise competition would make the total financial costs of medical insurance plummet to lows we have not seen in decades. Can you remember in the early 1980’s when the AT&T was the only long distance telephone company one could use? My family had to literally plan when we wanted to make those precious long distance calls to keep in touch with loved ones across the state or across the nation. Long distance rates ranged from 40 cents per minute for within state long distance, up to two dollars per minute to call Alaska or Hawaii. Now that we have the ability to choose our telephone carriers we are able to obtain phone plans that have FREE LONG DISTANCE.


The Federal Government has made laws that actually EXEMPT the largest Medical Insurance companies from the very anti-trust laws that prevent monopolies from getting a stranglehold on those purchasing their products. I will work to eliminate those exemptions to antitrust laws so that will result in true INTERSTATE COMPETITION, which will give you, the insurance shopper, a true freedom of choice when it comes to your procurement of medical insurance.



Another needed change is honest tort reform which will limit the abilities of high powered lawyers to hold the medical providers hostage with threats of outrageous “PUNITIVE” damages. This is not to say that honest damage awards would be prevented, however, for a litigant to receive punitive damages many times the actual physical damages awarded. You have seen in the past months the Liberal congress absolutely refuse to consider tort reform because they were fearful of the Attorney Lobbyist and the American Bar Association.



If you make me your Congressman, I will move immediately to address these areas of broad agreement. The only thing keeping them from becoming law are liberal refusals to separate them from their larger goal – government run health care that limits choice, restricts freedom and gives you less say in your health care decisions in favor of boards, panels and bureaucrats. I oppose government-run healthcare.
You can read more here for context http://www.georgefortennessee.com/id7.html

Does that qualify under the criteria we set forth?

And to you both, for my part, I'm just going to make the submission, let Dd review and decide, and then move on. I think in the interest of an honest bet, both Lurker and I should refrain from arguing a referee call. Once the call is made, its made, end of story, at least for me. This is a gentleman's bet, and as much as I disagree with Lurker on numerous topics, I consider him to be in that category.
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

Embar
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Re: The Bet (for Dd and Lurker)

Post by Lurker »

For anyone who cares, here's the orginal bet, Ddrak's questions about the bet, and the agreed upon parameters. The charities are PAWS San Diego and Doctors Without Borders.

And agreed. As much as I'm sure it galls both of us not to throw our two cents in, Ddrak will get the only and final say.
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Re: The Bet (for Dd and Lurker)

Post by Ddrak »

Quoting stuff here so I don't have to go wandering threads to look for clarification:

"No Democrat is going to campaign on repealing health reform" (Lurker for, Embar against)

"To me, more is required than a vague response to a reporters question or a parsed quote in a newspaper article.

While I don't think repealing reform needs to be a centerpiece of their campaign, it has to at least be mentioned on their website, or talked about on the campaign trail, or contained in a stump speech. Failing that, it would need to be a strongly worded public pledge to work towards repeal if elected or re-elected. Pledging to repeal part of reform or to alter it is fine as long as it's a significant part and the alteration makes the bill less progressive. I don't think Dennis Kucinich vowing to repeal reform and replace it with single payer and a pony was what Embar had in mind." (Embar agreed)
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Re: The Bet (for Dd and Lurker)

Post by Ddrak »

On this specific instance and because the bet is heavily tilted in favor of Embar (Embar just has to prove on case, Lurker has to sit tight and hope none happen before November), I'm going to hold off deciding right now. He hasn't specifically said he'd "repeal" the bill, but he's certainly no big fan of it's current form. With statements like the ones he's making, I'm sure he's going to have plenty more to say.

I also want to wait in some cases to see if the politician in question "explains" himself one way or the other.

Dd
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Re: The Bet (for Dd and Lurker)

Post by Taxious »

$10 on Embar
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Re: The Bet (for Dd and Lurker)

Post by Lurker »

Heh. I'm almost certain he'll win the bet, but hey... it's for charity. :)
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Re: The Bet (for Dd and Lurker)

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

Tried to send this to Lurker privately, but maybe I'm blocked...

Win or lose, when Dd makes his determination I'm going to send the bet amount to Lurker's selected charity, because its a damned good one. That organization embodies everything about what practicing medicine is all about, IMHO. It ain't about the money, it ain't about the glory, and if you knew what conditions those folks worked in, it ain't about the ego... its about saving lives. Or at least making those lives last longer.

A noble cause in my book, and certainly a thankless one. They don't get much "above-the-fold" press, because let's face it, Americans can't be bothered by the plight of those in war ravaged Sudan, or amputees suffering still from landmines left over in Viet Nam and Cambodia, or the Haitians. They get their 1-2 weeks in the news, Americans shed some tears, and then its left to groups like Doctors Without Borders to do the real work, while we bemoan our status as a declining superpower while slurping a four dollar frappacrappa from Starbucks.

Side note: listened to a report on NPR (love NPR), about how Jimmy Carter is working to eradicate the Guinea worm. He's attacking it like the world attacked small pox. And he's almost there. One small pocket left in southern Sudan. It's a horrendous and completely preventable parasitic condition. People who have Guinea worm are debilitated (do a Google), and I'd warrant that if a small percentage of Americans were afflicted in such a way as other humans on this planet are, there'd be a foundation by Gates and a Congressional hearing on the matter. I wonder why we only seemed concerned about what happens within certain geographic boundaries.

Anyway... Lurker's selected charity is an eminantly worthy one. Its a charity that trancends political idealogies, and trumps political idealouges. If you have a few bucks to spare, consider tossing a few at his charity. As maudlin as it sunds, it really does make the world a better place.
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Re: The Bet (for Dd and Lurker)

Post by Lurker »

Thanks, Embar.

I don't have any blocking set up so no idea why the PM wouldn't go. Regardless of how the bet turns out I'll be donating to both charities. They are both good causes.

And Ddrak, if there's a cut-and-dried submission don't hesitate to rule the bet won no matter how far out from November we are.
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Re: The Bet (for Dd and Lurker)

Post by Taxious »

Embar just took the fun out of the whole thing.
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Embar Angylwrath
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Re: The Bet (for Dd and Lurker)

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

http://www.critzforcongress.com/page/cr ... are-reform

Mark Critz (Democrat) campaigns on significant overhaul of Obamacare. (and wins)
While this bill represents significant progress in reforming our broken healthcare system, there were flaws that would’ve kept me from supporting it. This bill was too expensive, particularly because the $940 billion price tag didn’t include the Medicare doctor fix that would prevent reimbursement cuts to physicians who treat Medicare beneficiaries. In Congress I’ll work to fix this bill because this issue is too important
WaTimes article mentining it. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... democrats/

http://dailyradar.com/beltwayblips/vide ... epublican/

Youtube video of Critz specifically stating he opposed the healthcare bill.

Thats two Dems now campaigning on repeal or major reform of Obamacare. Do I win?
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Re: The Bet (for Dd and Lurker)

Post by Lurker »

Here's the statement by Critz that Embar posted including the sentence Embar chose to omit.
“No hardworking Western Pennsylvania family should be a diagnosis away from bankruptcy. We need health insurance reform but it must be done in a way that is consistent with our values. While this bill represents significant progress in reforming our broken healthcare system, there were flaws that would’ve kept me from supporting it. This bill was too expensive, particularly because the $940 billion price tag didn’t include the Medicare doctor fix that would prevent reimbursement cuts to physicians who treat Medicare beneficiaries. In Congress I’ll work to fix this bill because this issue is too important. I’ll work hard to strengthen and improve this legislation because that is what’s best for Western Pennsylvania.
And since you included a final sentence with your submission this time that attempts to plead your case, I'll do the same.

Your first submission was about someone who wanted to remove the antitrust exemption, legislation that is already moving through congress with bipartisan support. I think it passed the House on a near unamimous vote earlier in the year. It isn't a change or repeal of ACA.

Your second submission was about someone who thinks the ACA is too expensive based on something not even in the bill. The "doc fix" is something that Congress has passed every year and will continue to pass every year whether the ACA ever existed or not. For that reason, the "doc fix" is not a change or repeal of ACA.
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Re: The Bet (for Dd and Lurker)

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

You toss out "the doc-fix" like its some kind of adequate remedy to cost... its isn't. Its a horrible piece of legislation that keeps getting passed over and over again because Congress won't deal with the real costs (which will need to happen in order for cost savings from reforms in health entitlements to help pay for Obamacare).

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0510/37719.html
A CBO report this month estimated that $276 billion would be required to shore up Medicare for the next decade. Not surprisingly, no politician wants to get stuck with that check. So they’ve all politely deferred from the financial commitments in order to avoid the appearance of adding billions of dollars to the national deficit. But the “doc fix” actually fixes nothing. Health policy experts agree that health spending is not slowing down, so the short-term patches only “kick the can down the road,” as Van de Water put it. “They want to have their cake and eat it, too.” In other words, it’s a face-saving gimmick that makes it look like Congress is sticking to Medicare cost controls when it isn’t, despite numerous red flags over the years.
So I'm thinking that the "doc-fix" is part of what Critz had in mind when he was talking about expensive the so-called reform is. Its part of the hidden cost on top near trillion dollar price tag.
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Re: The Bet (for Dd and Lurker)

Post by Lurker »

I see you're a big fan of the CBO again. Good. That'll make this easier.

The problems with the SGR that force a "doc fix" existed before the Affordable Care Act. It isn't a "hidden cost" of the ACA.

Now for the easy part. Does the ACA make the problem better or worse?

The CBO finds that the ACA reduces the deficit and slows the rate of growth in health costs; it bends the cost curve. Runaway grown in health costs is the main reason the SGR was so out of whack in the first place and requires annual patches. So while the ACA didn't address the problems with SGR, it has greatly improved the status-quo. Reductions in the deficit and bending the cost curve make a future permanent fix of the SGR easier.
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Re: The Bet (for Dd and Lurker)

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

Why not fix it now instead of kicking the can down the road?
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Re: The Bet (for Dd and Lurker)

Post by Lurker »

Neither party wants to be accused of adding to the deficit, so they kick the can and have been since 2003.

Sure, all they would be doing by repealing the SGR is making budget projections more accurate - Congress postpones the cuts every year anyways - but that wouldn't stop partisans like you from shrieking about the price-tag. Drudge would have a big red headline about the Democrats exploding the deficit and you'd rush here to alert us. And look at the dishonest attempts to tie the "doc fix" to the cost of health reform, even though the problem already existed and the ACA greatly improves the situation.

All that said, I bet Obama gets a fix through by the end of his second term. :wink:
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Re: The Bet (for Dd and Lurker)

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

Interesting to note you think that fixing this will add to the deficit....
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Re: The Bet (for Dd and Lurker)

Post by Lurker »

What's so interesting? Not cutting doctor pay will cost more money than cutting doctor pay.

So, duh. A permanent fix will have a cost unless the legislation includes offsetting cuts or increased revenues. And while a permanent fix won't actually increase the deficit since Congress does temporary patches regardless, it will make the budget forcast match reality. In other words, when a permanent fix is enacted those extra costs (and any offsetting cuts or revenues) will be the new accurate baseline used by the CBO for budget projections.

At least we'll be in better fiscal shape to tackle this issue thanks to "Obamacare", as you derisively call it.
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Re: The Bet (for Dd and Lurker)

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

So adequately fixing the "doc-fix" inflates the deficit, gotcha. And adding that fix to Obamacare would have thrown the price tag over a trillion dollars, gotcha on that too. So... they didn't fix it when they could have because they were afraid of the number, and the REAL cost of Obamacare is higher than reported. Because Obama said that paying for Obamacare would largely come from reforms in Medicare. And THS reform will COST 250+ billion. So now he needs to find 750 billion in Medicare reforms (500 billion + the 250 billion this will cost). Do you see the fallacy now Lurker? You really think there are almost a trillion dollars in Medicare reforms that can be identified to pay for Obamacare?
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

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Re: The Bet (for Dd and Lurker)

Post by Lurker »

I submit Embar's last post, which ignores every bit of information in this thread, as proof that he's a moron. Do I win?
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Re: The Bet (for Dd and Lurker)

Post by Embar Angylwrath »

Really? How so?

About half of the cost savings for Obamacare are supposed to come from Medicare reform, correct?

The "doc-fix" is part of the Medicare workings, correct?

Congress will add about 250 billion to the deficit by not addressing the "doc-fix", correct?

Addresseing the "doc-fix" requires a substantial reduction in payments to doctors for treating Medicare patients, correct?

Therefore if Congress wants those Medicare patients treated, Congress must approve the "doc-fix" and increase the deficit, correct? (or pass a law that forces doctors to treat Medicare patients, regardless of remuneration)

Adding to the deficit because of a Medicare issue adds to the the overall cost of Medicare and therefore adds to the overall amount of cuts Obama must make within Medicare, correct?

Adding 250 billion to 500 billion equals 750 billion, correct?

Therefore the REAL number Obama must grapple with is a 750 billion dollar reduction in Medicare costs, correct?

And since Lurker has resulted to his usual ad hominem attacks when he's cornered, do I win?

Correct.
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.

Embar
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