Homosexuality

[Garrdor]

Can you be born gay?

Or is it a choice you make at some point of your life?

There's the cliche christ-o-family-male who leaves his wife and 3 kids to go live his new alternative lifestyle. I work with one of these.

There's also the female who was wronged/sexually abused by a male...and since then, rules out any possibility of a relationship with a male. I went to highschool with one of these. This points to the idea of 'choice'... though I've known several gay people who 'came out' very early on in their lives. A couple of them claiming they have felt that way since they had any feelings at all.

I just went and saw Pet Shop Boys in concert on the 20th up in Seattle... I was surrounded with nicely dressed/tanned/manicured/frosted-tips men, some of them flailing about flamboyantly. Some of them speaking with very harsh/seemingly forced 'gay lisps'. But then again, there's a male couple who sat in front of us who looked very under-dressed... and the only way I'd know they might even be of their persuasion is because they walked out of the theater holding hands very lovingly. There wasn't any sort of Will and Grace flamboyant outbursts coming from these guys. Now, the seats on other other side of us; the gentlemen were more along the lines of "Oh my gawd!" *wristflail*

I wonder how natural this -very popular- flamboyancy comes into play with the gay-dude lifestyle. I mean, there's too many guys who act like that for it to be some sort of dishonest act, I guess? I wonder what the down-to-earth guys in front of us think about the outgoing prissy/lispy guys on the other side of us?

There's a 'lesbian house' I used to hang out at with my now-drug-dealer ex-BFF.

We'd go over there and play Halo and stuff. All four of the girls who lived there were gay... and all of them were pretty rugged/rough around the edges. There was this sort of "Fuck you, world" attitude that I didn't see from other girls I interact with. Maybe it was just the crowd. One of them, this girl named Nicole... she told us one day that she was raped by a stranger at 15 and had to get an abortion. Since then she hasn't been attracted to men.

Whats your thoughts?

[Jarochai Alabaster]

My thought is it takes all types. You can't blame nature or nurture exclusively for homosexuality; for some of us it's one or the other, and for some of us I don't doubt it's a mix of the two. As one of those I wager you wouldn't be able to tell was gay without an overt sign of affection with another man, I can also say that the flamboyant ones annoy the living hell out of me. I also know that's not true of most of the non-flaming fags I've met in my life - most of us seem to be pretty indifferent to that. Actually, the last guy I had a genuine interest in had no interest in me at all, becuase I wasn't as he put it "a twink."

Lesbians? Who fucking knows. Women are hard enough to figure out as it is. Women who have more testosterone than most men? I don't even try to understand them.

Eh. This is a topic I've given serious consideration throughout my adult life, because I've been aware that I was different in these areas for my entire life. And with everything I've rolled around in my head, with the research projects I've read and studies on biological factors (There most definitely are biological factors that come into play) I've looked over, it still doesn't change the fact that we exist. The "why" seems largely irrelevant to me now, because that serves no real purpose that I can determine. I don't particularly need to know how I turned out to be gay - I am gay, and that's "normal" to me. I suppose at this point I'm just rambling, so blargh.

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

I used to work with a guy i would consider pretty flamboyant, he used to complain about the old women who'd complain about him being a male CNA "Honey you ain't got nothing i've never seen, or anything i CARE to see". a mutual co-worker of our talked to him recently, he's apparently married now, to a woman. He cut his hair, grew a "man beard" and dresses normally. He used to wrist flail and the whole 9 yards, and I was sure he'd been born gay as opposed to it being an open choice later in his life. I dont know what to make of the situation, but I thought I'd share it with you. I think it also takes a mix of the 2, and i think some people decide they ARE gay (more so women then men) when in reality it's simply a preference as opposed to an actual want. I think women are sexy, but Harolwe and Select dont have anything I don't have, and while all cocks are pretty much the same (looking) as well, I just dont have the DESIRE to be with a woman. I can look at women, and appreciate their beauty and sexiness, but even women I consider to be attractive dont make me WANT them .

[Embar Angylwrath]

My personal beleif is a person is born with a sexual preference, and its a sliding scale from hetero- to homo- sexuality. Probably linked to some hormone mix in early development. Just a hunch, I've seen no genetic studies on it (not to say there aren't any though)

[Harlowe]

I think we're born (maybe to do with hormones) with a lean (slight or strong) one way or the other and our life experiences move that reading further one way or the other. It might take something drastic in a person's life to become gay (rape or abuse by someone of the opposite sex) because they were born leaning more strongly hetero or it might be something that was second nature to them so they didn't need any influences within their life to become gay, it was their nature. By the same token, I think someone could become heterosexual even if they were born leaning gay, depending upon their life experiences.

I guess what I just said pretty much agrees with Embar.

[Taxious]

My thought is it takes all types. You can't blame nature or nurture exclusively for homosexuality; for some of us it's one or the other, and for some of us I don't doubt it's a mix of the two.

I agree with this. Personally, I believe I was born gay - I spent quite a bit of time and energy trying to change myself when I was younger that it's hard for me to believe otherwise. I grew up thinking I was going to be straight and didn't expect anything otherwise until puberty hit. Yet I've met people who say they have chosen to be gay. /shrug

Yes, there are a ton of flamers out there. One of the funniest things about gays that I've noticed is that we all think we are pretty masculine. I've heard the flammiest, purse-voiciest, wrist-flailiest fag tell me he's pretty butch. Personally, I'm not attracted to the super-fags, purse-voice is a big big turn off to me and pretty much every gay guy I know.

We'd go over there and play Halo and stuff. All four of the girls who lived there were gay... and all of them were pretty rugged/rough around the edges. There was this sort of "Fuck you, world" attitude that I didn't see from other girls I interact with. Maybe it was just the crowd. One of them, this girl named Nicole... she told us one day that she was raped by a stranger at 15 and had to get an abortion. Since then she hasn't been attracted to men.

A lot of people develop their sexuality before they are 15, I'm curious if she was attracted to men before the rape situation?

[Embar Angylwrath]

I also think the hormonal difference shows itself in physical characteristics. For instance, anyone notice how very broad-shouldered, thick waisted females with mullets tend to be lesbians (I kid about the mullets, well, not so much). There are certain physical characteristics that tend to be more prevalent, although not exclusive, in female homosexuals.

As a shitty example... if there was a female softball team, I'd expect 80% of them were lesbians. Thick bodies, wide shoulders, etc. Very "male" characteristics.

For guys though... not so simple, and I don't know why, still pondering that. I don't know if there are no relevant characteristics, or if I'm unable to see them. For example, I know one of the worst beatdowns in my life came in a karate tournament from a guy who I think was a flameing homosexual. After he finished kicking my ass into next week, he helped me up off the mat and said "You punch like a girl, but let me show you how to suck cock like a guy."

You can't make this shit up...

Needless to say I didn't hit the shower room, and I hoped to god he was kidding. Anyway, its harder (for me anyway) to pick out physical characteristics that would lead me to think the person I'm looking at is a male homosexual. I'd be interested to hear if hetero females have the same problem, or if its easier to spot gay males than gay females.

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

Uhhh I guess personally I have an easier time spotting gay males then gay females. A friend of mine is a lesbian, she's in her mid 40's, she had a kid, she has a short haircut but she's a women of a terribly thin build, small breasts. I guess i maybe suspected she was a lesbian but i was still a little surprised when she actually told me, just hadn't pegged her that way, although the guy i mentioned above used to make some jokes at her expense. He always said "takes no to know one" kind of comments

[Select]

I also think the hormonal difference shows itself in physical characteristics. For instance, anyone notice how very broad-shouldered, thick waisted females with mullets tend to be lesbians (I kid about the mullets, well, not so much). There are certain physical characteristics that tend to be more prevalent, although not exclusive, in female homosexuals.

Are you saying that lesbians have different hormone balances than hetero females? 'Cause that's sooooo untrue about the body type part. Hang out with different people, more people, and stop believing media stereotypes.

I'd be interested to hear if hetero females have the same problem, or if its easier to spot gay males than gay females.

Honestly, I can never tell what ladies I know are lesbians until I see something or am told, because there are no common defining "physical characteristics". Same with the gay men I know. Perhaps there are common attitudes and subtle body language as we see with a lot of gay men, but that's it.

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

I also think the hormonal difference shows itself in physical characteristics. For instance, anyone notice how very broad-shouldered, thick waisted females with mullets tend to be lesbians (I kid about the mullets, well, not so much). There are certain physical characteristics that tend to be more prevalent, although not exclusive, in female homosexuals.

Are you saying that lesbians have different hormone balances than hetero females? 'Cause that's sooooo untrue about the body type part. Hang out with different people, more people, and stop believing media stereotypes.

I would NEVER presume to speak for Embar, but what *I* think what he means is that certainly women who are built a certain way are more likely to be lesbians, not that they're actually hormonally different, anymore then it's fair to say every woman who's a size 2 with B breasts is a lesbian, but that women who are butchy, tend to be butchy lesbians more often then butchy heteros. It's just the way certain people present themselves, hence the part about the mullet. looking at 2 women built the same, but seeing how they dress and care for and present themselves can sometimes be telling. Not to say it's true, but it presents the same image a limp wristed male does.

[Jarochai Alabaster]

there are common attitudes and subtle body language as we see with a lot of gay men

See Select? You can make jokes about minority groups too!

[Select]

I did?

[Embar Angylwrath]

I also think the hormonal difference shows itself in physical characteristics. For instance, anyone notice how very broad-shouldered, thick waisted females with mullets tend to be lesbians (I kid about the mullets, well, not so much). There are certain physical characteristics that tend to be more prevalent, although not exclusive, in female homosexuals.

Are you saying that lesbians have different hormone balances than hetero females? 'Cause that's sooooo untrue about the body type part. Hang out with different people, more people, and stop believing media stereotypes.

I'd be interested to hear if hetero females have the same problem, or if its easier to spot gay males than gay females.

Honestly, I can never tell what ladies I know are lesbians until I see something or am told, because there are no common defining "physical characteristics". Same with the gay men I know. Perhaps there are common attitudes and subtle body language as we see with a lot of gay men, but that's it.

I think its safe to say I've had a wider and deeper life experience than you, so I have no idea why you think I'm buying into stereotypes. And Ari interpreted my post correctly. Some body types seem more associated with lesbianism than others.

[Harlowe]

I think I can tell both men and women pretty well - maybe because I've been pretty active within the gay community ever since my cousins came out when I was in high school - but with women I can only pick up on the ones say under 35-40ish, when you get into older lesbians they aren't a hell of a lot different then heteros.

[Embar Angylwrath]

I can pick out men only if they have mannerisms that tend to be gay. But if you lined 100 men up against a wall, and they weren't allowed to move, I couldn't tell a gay guy from a hetero guy. I guess what I'm trying to say is if there is a male body type more closely associated with homosexuality, I can't discern it. For women though, its a bit different for me. Not to say I can pick out every lesbian, but if 100 women were lined up against a wall, the ones that look like russian powerlifters would be the ones I would think were probably more likely to be butch lesbians.

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

And Ari interpreted my post correctly. Some body types seem more associated with lesbianism than others.

First time for everything !

[Select]

I think its safe to say I've had a wider and deeper life experience than you, so I have no idea why you think I'm buying into stereotypes.

Is that because you're older? Because being older does not mean you've automatically encountered or tried to encounter different types of people - more than someone younger. As for "life experience" in general, there are plenty of people who are still bigots and who still buy into stereotypes with crazy amounts of "life experience". It's certainly "not necessarily." And I still think you're buying into stereotypes and in many ways, I think you are a bigot.

[Embar Angylwrath]

I think its safe to say I've had a wider and deeper life experience than you, so I have no idea why you think I'm buying into stereotypes.

Is that because you're older? Because being older does not mean you've automatically encountered or tried to encounter different types of people - more than someone younger. As for "life experience" in general, there are plenty of people who are still bigots and who still buy into stereotypes with crazy amounts of "life experience". It's certainly "not necessarily." And I still think you're buying into stereotypes and in many ways, I think you are a bigot.

Partly because I'm older, have more experience with life, seen more things, dealt with more people, etc., etc.... and partly because what falls out of your mouth can't be coming from someone with a wealth of life exeperience.

[Partha]

If it's a gay man, it's all cool as long as he doesn't try hitting on me.

If it's a gay woman, then I know that's not going to be a source of future action.

Beyond that? Who gives a flying fuck? I mean, really.

[Taxious]

If it's a gay man, it's all cool as long as he doesn't try hitting on me.

I love this line and the fact that 95% of straight guys that say this are too ugly to get hit on by anyone, male or female.

Sorry, Partha....