Pelosi

[Embar Angylwrath]

I answered your question, you have four very simple yes/no questions you keep dodging. How about you take a crack at them? What are you afraid of?

[Harlowe]

Maybe you guys should start with something less intimidating to share with each other.....like "25 Random Things About Me'".

[Partha]

Something to chew on.
http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/tortu ... -briefing/

“I do not have any recollection of being briefed on waterboarding or other forms of extraordinary interrogation techniques, or Abu Zubaydah being subjected to them,” Graham told me by phone moments ago, in a reference to the terror suspect who had been repeatedly waterboarded the month before.

http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/ ... -sessions/

Bob Graham just appeared on WNYC's Brian Lehrer Show. In addition to repeating earlier reports that he was never briefed on waterboarding, Graham revealed that the first time he asked the CIA when he was briefed on torture, it claimed it had briefed him on two dates when no briefing took place.

I didn't get Graham's exact quotes (and the quotes below are rough approximations), but when asked to respond to Philip Zelikow's assertion that members of Congress from both parties had been briefed on this program, Graham said that when he asked the CIA when he had been briefed on the program, the CIA gave him the dates of four briefings, two in April 2002 and two in September 2002, when they claimed they had briefed him about the program. But after Graham consulted his own records, he pointed out that on two of those dates, he had not attended any briefing. After Graham pointed this out to the CIA, they conceded their own dates were incorrect.

We may not know the whole truth yet, but Graham is the fellow who is notorious for documenting EVERYTHING he did in his diary, even to the point of when he rewound videotapes.

[Lurker]

I answered your question, you have four very simple yes/no questions you keep dodging. How about you take a crack at them? What are you afraid of?

Based on how the techniques were used by us... Yes, Maybe, Yes, Yes

Maybe you guys should start with something less intimidating to share with each other.....like "25 Random Things About Me'".

That's less intimidating?

[Embar Angylwrath]

I answered your question, you have four very simple yes/no questions you keep dodging. How about you take a crack at them? What are you afraid of?

Based on how the techniques were used by us... Yes, Maybe, Yes, Yes

Maybe you guys should start with something less intimidating to share with each other.....like "25 Random Things About Me'".

That's less intimidating?

Ok, that's an honest answer.

See, I don't think that sleep deprivation, barking dogs, caterpillars are torture. I think stress positions *can* be torture if they inflict substantial amounts of pain.

For me, I draw the line at physical damage and/or intense physical pain. I do not consider psychological pressure to be torture, even if it invloves mental stress or fear. I consider that to be a legitimate interrogation tactic.

[Lurker]

And you think it's acceptable for the other side to use those tactics against us, so at least you are consistent. We obviously don't agree but at least we got our positions straight.

Now you can start off the 25 random things. Or maybe Harlowe should. And being afraid of marriage doesn't count. We already know that.

[Embar Angylwrath]

And you think it's acceptable for the other side to use those tactics against us, so at least you are consistent. We obviously don't agree but at least we got our positions straight.

Now you can start off the 25 random things. Or maybe Harlowe should. And being afraid of marriage doesn't count. We already know that.

I think that if those tactics WERE used against our troops, I wouldn't call for war crimes.

[Harlowe]

Depending upon the amount of sleep deprivation, that can easily be torture and certainly the combination of long periods of sleep deprivation in stress positions is pretty barbaric imo.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Depending upon the amount of sleep deprivation, that can easily be torture and certainly the combination of long periods of sleep deprivation in stress positions is pretty barbaric imo.

Only if it causes physiological harm (imho).

I know that sleep deprivation can cause changes in brain chemistry if applied for extended periods of time (for more than 7-10 days.) And I mean COMPLETE sleep deprivation. That's torture since it causes physiological damage. But even short breaks (uniterrupted sleep for just 3-4 of hours or more per day) can prolong or eliminate the physiological changes.

"BARBARIC" is a qualitative description. It differs from one person to the next. It's meaningless except to you. You should know better.

[Ddrak]

Now that this has been derailed,

Embar: Do you think any psychological damage amounts to "torture"? We all can agree (I think) that permanent physical damage is torture so the question now rests in pure psychological effects.

Dd

[Harlowe]

"BARBARIC" is a qualitative description. It differs from one person to the next. It's meaningless except to you. You should know better.

Yeah, that's why I said "imo".

[Embar Angylwrath]

Now that this has been derailed,

Embar: Do you think any psychological damage amounts to "torture"? We all can agree (I think) that permanent physical damage is torture so the question now rests in pure psychological effects.

Dd

Psychological damage is a wide open term with the definition dependent on the observer. So no, any psychological pressure short of techniques known to induce permananet psychosis would not be torture in my book.

[Klast Brell]

Actually, let me make it easy for you...\

Is a barking dog torture, yes or no.

Is placing a caterpillar on someone torture, yes or no.

Are stress positions torture, yes or no.

Is sleep deprivation torture, yes or no.

Lets see if you can answer some simple yes or no questions, or if you will continue to dodge.

Dog: Good question. If I tie you down to a chair so you cant defend yourself and threaten you with my snarling attack dog who is straining at his leash to get at you and tear you to pieces is that torture? If put a gun to your head, a knife to your throat, or held a blowtorch hear your crotch, instead of using a dog. Would that be torture?

A barking dog is not torture if you can get away from it. But this is mot just your neighbors toy poodle yapping at you through the fence. They are being hurt and threatened with being hurt even more. The dog by itself? Not torture. No more than the lying on your back by itself is not torture when you are being stretched on the rack.

Caterpillar: Again. Isolated from everything else it is not torture. But if you have a phobia it is torture.

Stress Position: Records show these men were bound in their "stress" positions for weeks at a time until their hands and feet swelled so badly that the skin tore. The soldiers applied bandages and kept them in the stress position. They gave the prisoners frequent breaks from the stress positions. Once or twice a day they would let them loose and "walk them" for 10 minutes to allow their circulation to recover. So really they were only in that stress position for 23 hours and 40 minutes a day.

Sleep Deprivation: Studies with rats have shown sleep deprivation causes brain damage. It also impairs the body's ability to produce white blood cells thus hampering the immune system. Sleep deprivation also augments pain and lowers thermal pain threshold. And the prisoners were kept in very cold rooms. Medics checked their vitals several times a day and reported heart rates dropping to below 40.

The answer to all your questions is a resounding YES. These things were used to torture people.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Back to Pelosi -

I listened to her comments on NPR today. She said she learned that waterboarding was used from a staff person who attended the briefings. That means she was illegally receiving classified infomration from someone who was illegally divulging it.

Now, I thought those present at those meeting could not discuss the content of those meetings with anyone not present at the meetings. At least that's what Pelosi, Rockefeller, etc. have been yammering about. If that is the case, then Pelosi knew the staffer violated the law, and helped cover it up by not reporting the breach of classified information.

She and the staffer should be prosecuted.

[Lurker]

You sure are making a lot of assumptions.

[Kulaf]

Wow talk about role reversal......when it was "OMG Karl Rove leaked Plames name".....a lot of us were saying ya'll we're making assumptions.

How does that shoe fit?

[Embar Angylwrath]

You sure are making a lot of assumptions.

Really?

They were her words. She admitted to receiving information from a staff member who attened the security breifings (after she was no longer part of that committee, and therefore not entitled to the information). It was also her words (and those of others who attended those meetings) that discussing the contents of those meetings with anyone not at meeting was illegal.

What assumption am I making?

[Lurker]

Another failed "gotcha" from Kulaf. Shocking. I didn't take part in the Plame discussions but the comparison doesn't fit anyways.

Embar, you are assuming that the staffer wasn't allowed to inform Pelosi about the briefing. You might be right, but it's still an assumption or at best an educated guess based on what little you've heard on NPR.

I do find your demands for prosecution of Pelosi commendable though. Who was briefed about it is so much more important than who approved and implemented the criminal acts. We must get to the bottom of what Pelosi did at all costs!

Josh Marshall sums it up well. Pelosi wants a Truth Commission to investigate the whole thing including who was briefed about what. The people attacking her don't.

[Embar Angylwrath]

http://pundits.thehill.com/2009/05/14/n ... -the-call/

There's the transcript of her statements. She got tripped up, essentially saying she wasn't told of the information, then she reverese and says she was, and then she tries to defelct it by saying she wasn't really involved. Focus on the parts where the reporter asks her about her interaction with Sheehey.

I guess she only received the information by it being beamed into her head. No one really told her anything, the information just magically popped into her skull.

[Harlowe]

Don't lose your focus on Pelosi, VIP of the torture issue.