Star Trek - saw it!

[Kulaf]

Kulaf, there most certainly was time travel. They even said they were now in an alternate reality because of the fact that history had been changed. The black hole didn't "pop them into an alternate reality," the alternate reality was the product of the black hole sending the mining ship and Spock back through time roughly 150 years and corrupting history.

Not that it matters much either way, except that I was apparently paying closer attention that you were. Regardless, a black hole doing anything other than crushing any matter it captures is such nonsense that to call it junk science isn't even applicable.

Plain and simple, this is a bad movie. Granted, I knew the rest of the world was going to love it when I saw it and realized it made about as much sense as the fucking Transformers movie, but the rest of the world tends to have retarded tastes in film.

At least one man saw it through similar eyes.

Ok if it was the same time stream then why were Spock and Uhura an item? And why was Scotty stuck exiled on Delta Vega? I would also suggest you read up on Quantum Mechanics regarding alternate dimensions.

[Kulaf]

That said......man this could be a very interesting time for a new alternate reality Star Trek. Vulcan is gone....but in this reality Romulus is still there. Which means the Federation is going to be a lot weaker or another member is going to have to step forward and take the place of the Vulcans.

Wait a minute . . . Is Romulus still there? I thought the whole impetus for destroying Vulcan was the fact that Romulus was no longer there? I must have missed something.

Yes Romulus is still there. Because this is an alternate time stream the supernova has not.....and may never occur.

[Kulaf]

Ohh and just to show you how close Ebert was paying attention to the movie.....he says a young Kirk drives a car into the Grand Canyon. Well unless they moved it to Iowa......and it's not the site for the future Star Fleet shipyard......then he knows something I don't.

[Jarochai Alabaster]

Yes Romulus is still there. Because this is an alternate time stream the supernova has not.....and may never occur.

Romulus is still there because the Supernova hasn't happened yet. Old Spock specifically said they were transported roughly 120 years into his past when the black hole he created captured his and Nero's ships.

But don't take just my word for it. Look here.

This elderly Spock explains that, 120 years in the future, he tried to save the Romulan planet from being destroyed by a nearby supernova, using the red matter in his ship to create a black hole that would neutralise the threat. Though Spock did not complete his mission in time to save Romulus -- resulting in Nero's vow to take revenge on Spock and the Federation -- he stopped the supernova, and the resulting black hole transported Spock's ship and the Narada into the past.

I know where you're getting confused. At one point the characters are discussing the ramifications of what's happening, and someone (I don't remember who) says something along the lines of their timeline being "alternate" from what was originally intended. I think the point was reiterated once or twice. When you break it down, it was to inform us, in no uncertain terms, that the writers have free liscence to do whatever the fuck they want with these characters and plotlines from here on. As I said before, "system reboot." What you're not seeing is that the alternate timeline is a direct result of time travel, which was in no uncertain terms stated to be the catalyst for the whole fucking plot.

Ok if it was the same time stream then why were Spock and Uhura an item? And why was Scotty stuck exiled on Delta Vega?

In Wrath of Khan, how does Khan recognize Checkov?

Keep in mind, I never said it was the same time stream. In fact, we're in aggreement that it's an alternate timeline, you're just arguing that time travel wasn't involved in the movie at all. Regardless, the timeline as we knew it began to be corrupted the moment the Narada destroyed the Kelvin. Anything and everything after that moment in time is unexplored territory. And when you get right down to it, those characters are in those situations because that's what the writers wanted to do with them.

I would also suggest you read up on Quantum Mechanics regarding alternate dimensions.

Are you suggesting the writers did? Because they obviously don't know the first thing about black holes, for starters. Do you think they bothered to apply valid scientific theory to this movie? Really?

And as for the canyon...while it was obviously supposed to be set in Iowa, I'm confident that wasn't shot anywhere in that state. Though I consider that irrelevant personally.

tldr: There's time travel. It's stated directly within the film, multiple times, and never refuted or disproven within the story presented. Spock and Nero travelled 120 years into the past. End of story.

[Kulaf]

Khan recognizes Checkov because the writers of Wrath of Kahn fucked up. They got the sequence of when Checkov first appeared on the show wrong. Though I fail to see any point you are making.

Again......if this is the same time line why are Spock and Uhura an item? There is no mention of that in any Star Trek lore I have ever read. And why was Scotty sent to Delta Vega? Also never mentioned anywhere in any Trek lore I have ever read. This is not someone messing up by getting episodes wrong....this has never been alluded to in any of the shows.

The writers of the Trek universe have already dealt with alternate realities. In TNG epidsode Parallels Worf flips between realities where only subtle things are different. They correctly postulate that every decesion spawns a new reality branch in which that decesion is made differently. Where every occurance spawns a new reality. As soon as they entered the black hole they created a new reality.

Bottom line......you cannot go backwards in time to the same reality in which you never went backwards in time. Understand?

[Harlowe]

SNL Star Trek

[Jarochai Alabaster]

Bottom line......you cannot go backwards in time to the same reality in which you never went backwards in time. Understand?

Yes, of course I understand. And this principle is demonstrated in the movie; the moment Spock and Nero are propelled back through time, events are changed. We begin now to see how the new timeline plays out.

Again......if this is the same time line why are Spock and Uhura an item? There is no mention of that in any Star Trek lore I have ever read. And why was Scotty sent to Delta Vega? Also never mentioned anywhere in any Trek lore I have ever read. This is not someone messing up by getting episodes wrong....this has never been alluded to in any of the shows.

Who the fuck knows? And honestly, who gives a fuck? Do they ever say how old Kirk is? I'm guessing around 18, so there's been nearly two decades for the effects of the altered history to ripple out. Given that there was an entire starship removed from its natural place in history, all of Starfleet (And thus all of its members, Scotty, Spock, and Uhura being among them) is going to be effected. Do you really need them to lay out every little thread and display how A connects to B and so on? Though personally I think the Spock + Uhura romance is utterly pointless and contrary to Spock's character to begin with, but that is neither here nor there.

And the point I was making with Wrath of Khan is simply that writers do shit like that. They fuck shit up or randomly decide to retcon it, and this movie allows the future writers of ST broader liscence to do that with the premise that we're dealing with an alternate timeline now.

And quite frankly, Star Trek has pretty much always regarded interdimensional travel and time travel as completely separate things, even when the timeline of the "home" universe we follow in the show is altered. And even when the two are intertwined, they're still separate. Consider In A Mirror, Darkly. The Tholians in the mirror universe captured a Starfleet vessel from our universe, from the future. All the dimensions exist in the same time, and time travel is possible both within one's own dimension as well as within another's, and they're certain to make that distinction. Just as Spock was certain to make clear that he had traveled back through time. Now we're seeing how the events in "home" universe play out given these changes.

Again, it is established that there is time travel in this movie.

[Kulaf]

http://www.boston.com/ae/movies/article ... _frontier/

Conceptually, this is a genius move: It establishes the entire movie as an alternate, parallel "Star Trek" universe in which Abrams and his screenwriters Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman can do as they wish, fanboys and the canon be damned. Kirk can grow up a rebellious hothead, only learning about his father through the paternal Captain Pike (Bruce Greenwood). Kirk and Spock can meet not on the bridge of the Enterprise but as clashing cadets in training school. ("Who was that pointy-eared bastard?," Kirk mutters.) Spock can even have a simmering relationship with Uhura that occasionally involves long, steamy kisses. Heresy!

[Jarochai Alabaster]

The universe has to be saved (again), and Spock has to undergo a personality crisis severe even by the standards of his half-human/half-Vulcan nature. A renegade Romulan named Captain Nero (played by Eric Bana with facial tattoos and a taste for waterboarding) has dropped in from decades into the future, and he's very, very angry about something the older Spock has done, or will do. Nero's first order of business is to attack a starship, in the process killing Kirk's father (Chris Hemsworth) just as Mother Kirk (Jennifer Morrison) is giving birth to our hero in an escape shuttle.

This would be the paragraph before the one you quoted. Note how what I've bolded leads into what you've bolded. Note how the "alternate, parallel 'Star Trek' universe" is the result of (Drumroll please) history having been altered by Nero when he traveled through time into the past.

[Kulaf]

No.....the alternate timeline is an alternate timeline BEFORE that much like the old series with the bearded Spock existed before the "normal" crew changed things in it. Which accounts for things that are different that were not impacted by the one event of the ship coming through the blackhole. All of the clues to that are there......you just want to ignore them. Hell do I need to find an interview with J.J. Abrams to prove it to you?

[Kulaf]

http://paralleluniverse.msn.com/feature ... ies-again/

"This history has not been written, so it is beginning anew, and it is existing concurrent with the `Trek' that fans love. If they don't like this movie, this movie acknowledges that that timeline is legit, and go watch it. Go check it out. It'll be on Blu-ray soon."

There.....now STFU.

[Jarochai Alabaster]

Ok. That still has nothing to do with the fact that time travel happens in this movie, which was the fucking point to begin with.

[Jarochai Alabaster]

And that interview doesn't say what you think it does. Nowhere does Abrams say he's written this as an alternate reality before the events with Nero and Spock. Were that the case, why center the plot around events that change the existing timeline, even if it is an alternate one? Hell, I said in my first post that they should have done what you say they did - set it up as an alternate timeline from the get-go. There's nothing whatsoever in this movie itself that establishes that, and if that's genuinely the case then this film is even more fail than I initially concluded.

Like I've said before, Scotty Spock and Uhura's existing placement and interactions could easily be attributed to an entirely new set of events unfolding from the moment the Kelvin was destroyed. Or just shitty writing and characterizations regarding Spock. Give me something more solid, like an established event prior to Kelvin's destruction that exists in either this film or the previous ST continuity, but not both.

[Klast Brell]

Its both. Spock and the Romulans time traveled in to the past of an alternate dimension. It's a desert and a floor topping. Now can we all just get along?

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

Has this officially turned from a review into a /geek ON discussion ?

[Harlowe]

Has this officially turned from a review into a /geek ON discussion ?

Yes. Yes it has.

[Kulaf]

And speaking of time travel, the time travel cop out was completely unnecessary for what I understood to be a reboot of the Star Trek concept. Nevermind that time travel has been done to fucking death in the franchise (And was the entire premise behind the Enterprise series) and we could use some fresh ideas. How about playing off the characters a little more? How about a villain who has more motivation than "Spock couldn't save Romulus in time."

That was the quote that started this.

1) This was completly necessary to "reboot" the concept.
2) This was not time travel in any sense of the norm used in Star Trek in which they always return to their own time stream.
3) This was an entirely fresh idea.

The creation of a parallel universe Star Trek was brilliant. It kept the old grouches like Jaro happy because their icons were not touched other than Spock.....who can now be the "Moses" of the new Vulcan race.

[Jarochai Alabaster]

That was the quote that started this.

No, this was:

there was no time travel!

Moving on...

1) This was completly necessary to "reboot" the concept.

No, it wasn't. It would have been much better had they started with a completely clean slate. Compare classic BSG to modern BSG, and that's more in line with what I'm talking about. That is what's completely necessary to "reboot" Star Trek.

2) This was not time travel in any sense of the norm used in Star Trek in which they always return to their own time stream.

Far from "always." In the original timeline, there was no Commander Sela. In the original timeline, Ben Cisco was not a prominent historical figure in the 21st century. In the original timeline Voyager was destroyed in an attempt to use slipstream to get home. In the variant timeline after Voyager was saved by Chakotay and Kim, Voyager spent another 20 or so years trying to get home...until Admiral Janeway went back in time to get them home sooner. In the original timeline, Florida wasn't decimated by the Xindi. And this is just off the top of my head.

Keep in mind Star Trek has never been known for consistency in their "science," especially regarding temporal mechanics.

3) This was an entirely fresh idea.

You're saying time travel resulting in an altered timeline is an "entirely fresh idea" for Star Trek? Surely you jest.

The creation of a parallel universe Star Trek was brilliant. It kept the old grouches like Jaro happy because their icons were not touched other than Spock.....who can now be the "Moses" of the new Vulcan race.

The hilarity of this is I'm not even a big fan of the franchise, though my parents are so I pretty much grew up with it. If you'd been paying attention, I've been saying this film needed to steer away from the nonsense of the original Star Trek concept. Truth be told, Star Trek is and always has been pretty bad. It's cheezy, often preachy, and shows no interest in maintaining consistency with its own established history, let alone real-world physics. I own exactly one ST film, and genuinely enjoy less than half of them. The vast majority of the franchise has been nothing more than mindless fluff, and I was hoping for some actual substance for a change given that this was supposed to be the reboot. This is the same Star Trek we've always known. It's just this time, history got fucked more significantly than has happened in any episode prior. That's all. Same Star Trek, minus one planet.

[Kulaf]

No your not a big fan of the franchise at all.

[Jarochai Alabaster]

Nope, not really. I've seen virtually all of it though, and the few times I've had cable I'd watch it for lack of anything better on (There's some channel that, for several years ran reruns of TNG, DS9 and Voyager for like 4 hours a day). Any affection I have for the franchise is purely nostalgic at this point, simply because I remember it being a kind of family event to sit down and watch TNG when I was a kid. Then DS9, then Voyager. I just happen to have a good memory. I watched season 3 of Enterprise (The Xindi plot arc) recently on a friend's reccomendation, and though it had some flaws I found it to be among the best I've seen in the franchise in general. I've also caught random episodes of Enterprise here and there so I've seen enough to understand the basic premise behind it all and I'm familiar with the major plot points. The only ST I've seen very little of is TOS, and I just can't get into it whatsoever.

Basicually, I used to be a big fan. Not so much anymore, but that doesn't mean I automatically forgot everything about it.