De-Baptism

[Harlowe]

I think you have an incredibly condecending view of Christians

I have to agree with Kulaf. You have an extremely condescending opinion of Christians and are very snide about them here. The tone you set really borders hate imo. Which is pretty strange coming from someone that champions tolerance towards just about any other group.

[Select]

Klast, I get what you're saying. The people on this board tend to be from some pretty progressive areas where people don't give a shit, but that doesn't mean every where else in the country is so tolerant. My boyfriend's parents told his eight year old sister that his brother couldn't marry his Native American girlfriend because she was a different race. The boyfriend wouldn't tell them that I was an agnostic who leaned atheist for fear of similar discrimination. His dad is high up in the army and they live in the suburbs, so these aren't low-achieving people living in the backwater.

On a broader scope, there are a lot of school districts where they're trying to force creationism into the classroom. I don't think the board members here actively seek out atheist news to know how deeply and how commonly people will discriminate. I think it's on the books in Alabama(? - I need to start saving my links) that an atheist may not run for office. Can it legally be enforced? No. Will people vote for an atheist is the more important question.

I think it's ridiculous that those who identify as Christian are getting offended by your opinions. There are many types of Christians and if the people on this board and the people they know are tolerant and cool, that's nice, but it certainly doesn't speak for the entire group and every subgroup. These reactions remind me of the straight, white, upper-class, males who get upset at diversity training because they think the finger is pointing at them specifically.

[Kulaf]

Umm.....MN isn't a progressive state?

[Select]

Oh, please. Districts, towns, and individuals don't have to be progressive just because the state is.

[Kulaf]

He lives in the largest city in the state. Got anything else?

[Select]

Yeah, there are individuals living there.

[Kulaf]

Yeah and they are by in large......liberals.

[Select]

Individuals. How hard is it to understand that not everyone you're surrounded with will always hold the same ideals? Mostly liberals, but he could live in an area where a lot of intolerant people live or he works where there are a lot of intolerant people. And if he doesn't, someone else lives and works in those environments. They don't disappear just because a state is progressive. I'll put it this way: Just because a state legalizes gay marriage, doesn't mean all discrimination magically disappears.

[Kulaf]

Yes.....and Klast is also an individual. He is an individual that over years of posting on this board has pretty much revealed himself to be a religious bigot.....extremely so with respect to Christians. So what should someone who is so intollerant of the views of others.....expect different treatment.

Ohh yeah ......Christians turn the other cheek.

[Select]

What does that have to do with understanding that not all Christians fall under the same blanket? And although intolerance towards atheists may be akin to the boogieman in your circles, that is not everyone's experience? I thought we were smart enough to know that Klast's post had a little to do with Christian privilege, but he was mostly speaking about the intolerant branches and individuals. I thought we were smart enough here to understand who he was talking about without him needing to put the word "some" before every "Christian". Again, it reminds me of diversity training where straight, white, upperclass, males get offended because "some" or "not all" isn't put before every example of discrimination.

And that intolerance towards atheists may be akin to the boogieman in your circles, but that is not the experience of everyone.

Back to this. It disturbed me when Tax said

Sorry to bring up the gay stuff, but some of the things you are saying sound very familiar. A couple jobs ago, I was freaked out that I would get fired/paid less/looked down upon if I were to come out to coworkers. I discovered that no one really cares about this kind of stuff as much as you do.

This was using his experiences with tolerance towards homosexuality to support the claim here that the idea of intolerance is just the boogieman or "mountains out of pimples". Tax got lucky with his job. The fears he seems to be saying were baseless and silly are a real concern for the gay community.

[Torakus]

Klast,

Don't worry. If it is just me you and David Hume that get it, so be it.

Tora

[Ddrak]

Even if I were to renounce my faith (which I'm not), I wouldn't bother making any bigger deal out of it than I try to out of actually having a faith. I figure it's my own business and if people are interested I'll talk about it, but why shove it on the world?

Dd

That's weak. People make the same argument about the GLBT community "i don't care if you are queer, just don't advertise it. To see the flaw in that argument you just have to turn it 180 degrees. Your Christianity is your own business. Why are you shoving it out on the world. Why do you wear a crucifix, have an ichthus on your car and say bless you when I sneeze. Is it necessary for your entire family to say grace in a public restaurant where people are trying to enjoy a quiet meal.

What's your damage? If you read exactly what you quoted then you'd realize I said my Christianity *is* my own business and I don't shove it out in the world. It's people like YOU that take offense to Christians for no good reason that are just as bad as the Christian nutters taking offense to atheists. By reacting this way, you're simply proving yourself no better than the people you resent.

For reference, I don't wear a crucifix, have a fish on the car or say grace in a public restaurant. Saying "bless you" when you sneeze is actually rooted in pagan beliefs so your theory there is entirely bullshit. I think people doing these things deserve exactly the same derision and disrespect as those who put "Darwin", "Magic Happens" or "W '04" stickers on their car.

In gender roles you could say the same. I don't care if you are straight, but why shove it out on the world? Look at that woman. She is flaunting her heterosexuality in those high heals and little black dress. "Hey Hetero! No one what's to look at your boobs." And Jesus Christ every time I go to a movie there are straight people kissing and saying they love each other. Half the time they show them fucking each other. At least in R rated movies they have the decency to hide their grinding under a sheet or only show them from the waist up. An X rated movie would make me want to throw up.

Complete bullshit. How can you tell a woman is straight or gay when she's wearing a little black dress. That's a gross assumption on YOUR part and rather bigoted if I may say so myself. It seems you're of the opinion that women only dress up if they're not gay? And why wouldn't a lesbian want to look at a nice pair of boobs?

Movies cater to a target audience. There's gay people represented in just about all movies now, and given the gay community is really a fairly small minority, it could even be argued that they're over-represented in the film industry. Your attitude here is completely over the top bullshit.

Look at those white people. Do they have to all dress like that? Blue jeans, blue jeans, blue jeans. And the suburban way they talk. Ivoryonics? that's not even real English. I hate getting stuck in traffic near one of their cars. You can hear their pop music blasting out of their windows. Even worse if it's that rock shit. How can anyone listen to that?

Umm... white people talk in ebonics and black people don't talk in ebonics all the time. Again - showing yourself as rather racist here aren't you with those bigoted views on people? Honestly, anyone with their music up loud enough in the car for me to hear it in my closed car pisses me off. I don't bother to look to see what color their skin is - why would you even care?

As an atheist I get Christianity shoved in my face all the time. And I have to hide my atheism at work just like Gay people have to act straight and black people have to act white, for fear of being seen as an outsider. And sure. No one will outwardly discriminate against us in hiring, wage reviews and promotion decisions. But if they don't feel that we am like them they won't value us as much. Would you be "out of the closet" as a democrat if most of the people in your company were republicans? If they talked shit about Hillary Clinton would you argue with them or just keep your mouth shut? Would you be an out and proud republican if you worked at a company bursting at the seams with liberal democrats cracking jokes about George Bush all the time.

And yet, when you find a Christian who says that other Christians shouldn't shove stuff in people's faces you rant at them and shove your own Atheism into my face. You're the very person you hate from the other side. All I can suggest is perhaps you better take a long hard look at your own hypocrisy before you start bitching about anyone else's problems.

I don't give a shit if you're atheist, muslim or christian. I enjoy talking to people of different religions (comparative religious discussion is pretty interesting) and mostly I don't know who is what religion at my work because I don't shove mine on them and they don't shove theirs on me. If the topic comes up I'm happy to discuss it, but mostly I keep it quiet because there's so many people like YOU in the world that seem to have a chip on their shoulder and want to rant at the world in general.

If people talk shit about my favored political party, I'd treat it the same was as when they talk shit about christianity - I'd just ignore it unless I thought they actually wanted a rational discussion rather than some self-reinforcement at the expense of others. Being an "out of the closet" Democrat or a "out and proud Republican" at work just seems stupid to me - why would I push my personal beliefs unsolicited on others like that? It seems a sure way to turn them against me rather than with me.

Every minority walks around a world saturated in the symbols and rituals of the majority. It's shoved in their faces 24/7. When they publicly show their symbols and practice their cultural rituals, the majority people get annoyed at the intrusion.

Wrong. That's how those with a chip on their shoulder like to portray things, but it's not reality. Sure there's some bigoted assholes around, but does that mean you have to be a bigoted asshole in return? It sure doesn't make things better, and by reacting the way you do my post you're just forcing yourself into the minority of bigoted assholes in the world, and that minority can shrivel up and die for all I care - the world will end up much better without that particular one.

I hope some day you get so used to us that you can think of us as normal rather then different. Until you can see us as part of your community and culture.

Actually, you're the only person contributing to your own differences. Until you can stop referring to atheists as "us" and christians as "them" then you'll continue to have this chip on your shoulder. Your entire rant, your entire posture and your entire bigotry towards christianity has to come down before you can possibly be accepted into the wider community of human beings. Until you achieve that, you'll remain in the sad world of "us" and "them" and never get out.

Back to my original rebuttal of your post. Take anything you say about atheists and substitute the word "Jews" Would you feel comfortable saying that to your coworkers?

Yes. Absolutely. I could also substitute "Christian", "Black", "Wiccan", "Aboriginal", "American" or "Muslim" as well. I seriously doubt you could do the same with "Christian" in your own rant.

Dd

[Select]

I hate when Darwin is pitted against religion. :\

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

And why wouldn't a lesbian want to look at a nice pair of boobs?

Frankly every lesbian i know is of the mind set that "i have no one to impress" and while i certainly wouldn't call most of them bull dykes, i wouldn't say they really put anything into their appearance one way or another. There's 2 woman taking a class in the same building as me, they both look like reject farmers, they are in fact lesbians, but it's easy to peg them, short haircuts, oversize flannel shirts, one looks like she SHOULD have fairly large breasts, but in fact shows none at all, overalls.it makes me sad they don't care to make a bit of effort towards their appearance. I mean they could still look masculine without the farmer gear... Sorry just a side note.

[Harlowe]

I'm an agnostic, so not exactly someone that is going to personally be offended by Christian bashing, but I find it to be just as intolerant as bashing any other belief or lifestyle. But for some people, Christians are the exception to their rule. They find a plethora of reasons not to be tolerant or respectful.

BTW MN is incredibly liberal other than the 6th District, in spite of having a lot of Christians here.

[Harlowe]

Just to add, I don't want to get into a "pick on Klast" thing. This is just about how his words come across with regard to Christians and I think its just as easy to find a reason to be intolerant of any group of people based on their beliefs, ethnicity or orientation if you really want to find one.

I think it's just disingenous to speak out against intolerance then bash a group of people based on their religious belief.


Unless you are Scientologist.

[Kulaf]

Wel they stopped teaching geopolitical understanding in Select's neck of the woods. We just have to let her tire herself out from this little Relbeek in reverse binge she's on.

[Taxious]

I don't want to get into a "pick on Klast" thing.

I rarely see Klast get picked on, it's his turn IMO!

It disturbed me when Tax said

Sorry to bring up the gay stuff, but some of the things you are saying sound very familiar. A couple jobs ago, I was freaked out that I would get fired/paid less/looked down upon if I were to come out to coworkers. I discovered that no one really cares about this kind of stuff as much as you do.

This was using his experiences with tolerance towards homosexuality to support the claim here that the idea of intolerance is just the boogieman or "mountains out of pimples". Tax got lucky with his job. The fears he seems to be saying were baseless and silly are a real concern for the gay community.

... it's not the 1960s anymore Select. A little discretion and knowledge of what will fly in certain locations goes a long way.

[Embar Angylwrath]

If you read Klast's posts closely, his opinion of Christians are mostly coming from speculations on how Christians think and feel, and less from actual experience. It seems he's constructed a definition of Christians based on very few interactions, but a lot of supposition and conjecture, and then thrown all Christians into that box. It's very narrow minded, if you ask me. Just like throwing all gays into the "they are evil and will prey on your children" box. Honestly, its not very far off from the mindsets of the people who used to persecute the Christians. Klast has formed an opinion based on fear of Christians. I find that odd.

@ Select... please keep arguing with Kulaf about how poor Klast can't get a liberal view in the biggest city in MN. I want to submit your responses in this post to The Guiness Book of World Records for cuntish dumbshittery of the year.

[Baginns Hobbiton]

Hey there,

I think it's ridiculous that those who identify as Christian are getting offended by your opinions. There are many types of Christians and if the people on this board and the people they know are tolerant and cool, that's nice, but it certainly doesn't speak for the entire group and every subgroup.

That is the very point. Klast has selected a large group of people and then applied his opinions and views to them. It is stereotype at the least and bigotry at the worst. Does anyone have a problem with this statement if I switch the words around... "As a Christian I get homosexuality shoved in my face all the time."? I'm sure Klast would have had a field day had I made a statement like that in the Atheism thread.

In case the link is not obvious....

As an atheist I get Christianity shoved in my face all the time.

That said, I'm not offended by Klast's views. In fact, I used to share them. When I was dating my wife I didn't tell her parents who are strong Christians that I was agnostic. I never lied about it, but I didn't make it a point to bring it up either. I used to think that Christians were closed minded and intolerant. When I finally talked to them about it they thanked me for being honest and that was the end of it. Nothing like I expected. You may find that if you talk to these people that they are not as intolerant or hateful as you seem to think. Of course, there are bad apples everywhere no matter if they are Christian, Islamic, Gay, Straight, or Atheist.

I hope some day you get so used to us that you can think of us as normal rather then different. Until you can see us as part of your community and culture.

I think Atheist are normal people who just happen to believe differently than I do. Have these workplace Christians persecuted you or are you segregating yourself from the community due to your own fear? You will never be part of the community until you choose to join it.

Would you be "out of the closet" as a democrat if most of the people in your company were republicans?

Yes. I live in Texas and I'm one of 3 democrats at my work place. I'm in a very small minority but I'm not afraid to discuss my views if the topic arises. I make it a point not to push my views on others as well. In fact, my neighbor at work is an Atheist and we have great conversations with mutual respect even regarding religion. Give others respect and you will find that it is often returned.