Torture ineffective

[Embar Angylwrath]

Do you see "sleep deprivation" or "stress position" in that definition? I don't.

[Partha]

Sleep deprivation isn't mental torture?

[Embar Angylwrath]

It sure isn't mentioned in the Geneva Convention as torture as you claimed it was.

You and Lurker have been posting deliberately false statements.

[Baginns Hobbiton]

Hey there,

Embar, do you think that these techniques would be an acceptable tool to use in law enforcement with US citizens? If not, why?

[Lurker]

You and Lurker have been posting deliberately false statements.

Which statements were false?

Embar, do you think

No. He doesn't.

[Rsak]

Lurker you are a hypocrite.

You make grand accusations over agreeing facts being facts. When someone else makes the same request that you acknowledge simple clear to see facts you run and hide.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Hey there,

Embar, do you think that these techniques would be an acceptable tool to use in law enforcement with US citizens? If not, why?

In my opinion they aren't accceptable to use against US citizens, and the question is irellevant, because we've always treated foreign hostiles differently than US citizens.

Do you think foreign hostiles are entitled to every right a US citizen has?

[Lurker]

In my opinion they aren't accceptable to use against US citizens, and the question is irellevant, because we've always treated foreign hostiles differently than US citizens.

Two comments. Jose Padilla. Also, by your logic it's "acceptable" for other countries to use those tactics against us.

When someone else makes the same request that you acknowledge simple clear to see facts you run and hide.

Links please.

[Kulaf]

Kulaf,
You asked how we could get actionable intelligence without torturing people. The article spoke to that.

And as he stated.....those techniques had already been employed.

[Partha]

In my opinion they aren't accceptable to use against US citizens, and the question is irellevant, because we've always treated foreign hostiles differently than US citizens.

Translation: I have no problem using them against non-US citizens.

[Fallakin Kuvari]

Foreign hostiles are exactly that, foreign and hostile. They are not U.S. citizens, they do not deserve the same rights that we have bled for. Same can be said for illegal immigrants.

To clarify: while it is commonly understood that our Bill or Rights is the Rights which all people have, the common misconception is that those same rights are free to everyone. Many people throughout our history have fought for those rights, protected them and kept them safe. Those foreign hostiles would like to see those rights and our freedoms vanish, why should they benefit from them if they want to destroy them?

[Ddrak]

In my opinion they aren't accceptable to use against US citizens, and the question is irellevant, because we've always treated foreign hostiles differently than US citizens.

Do you think foreign hostiles are entitled to every right a US citizen has?

Once in US custody, yes. Any nation has the obligation to treat people completely within their power (ie held against their will) without prejudice of any external factors.

To clarify: while it is commonly understood that our Bill or Rights is the Rights which all people have, the common misconception is that those same rights are free to everyone.

Apparently common enough that the Supreme Court holds the same "misconception". By your argument, slavery is perfectly legal so long as you only take non-US citizens. It's a fallacy promoted by people trying to rationalize torture, blind prejudice and other amoral crap.

Those foreign hostiles would like to see those rights and our freedoms vanish, why should they benefit from them if they want to destroy them?

A common misconception promoted to encourage xenophobic patriotism. "The foreigners are evil and want to destroy us". Weirdly enough they tend to think exactly the same of you - ever wonder why the term "Great Satan" is thrown around (inaccurately). Positions like yours and Embars only encourage their attitude that America is actually out to oppress them and the only way to attain their freedom from the global oppression of a superpower is to fight back at that superpower until they feel that they have the same rights you do.

Dd

[Fallakin Kuvari]

To quote someone from another board I frequent:

How about the release of these interrogation memos? The Obama administration is fully divulging all of our enhanced interrogation tactics and procedures (thereby giving aid and comfort to the enemy), but not the positive benefits that came of the enhanced interrogations, which have been redacted from the same memos. As many of you probably know, repeated waterboarding of Khalid Sheik Mohammad resulted in the capture of the Geruba Cell, a group of East Asian terrorists who were set to carry out the second wave of the 9/11 plan, which involved ramming airliners into the Library Tower in LA. The release of these memos is part of a transparent plan to smear Bush and his administration, while persecuting those who took it upon themselves to do everything within their (legal) power to prevent further terrorist attacks, indisputably saving American lives.

@Dd: I don't mean every Foreigner, Dd. Only hostile ones who literally want to see all our freedoms taken away (which most if not all of the hostile ones do).

And what is the difference between what Illegal Immigrants are paid under the table (very little, in most cases) vs. Slavery (where you have to maintain a place for them to live and provide them with food so they can continue to work)? It's essentially the same thing.

[Embar Angylwrath]

In my opinion they aren't accceptable to use against US citizens, and the question is irellevant, because we've always treated foreign hostiles differently than US citizens.

Two comments. Jose Padilla. Also, by your logic it's "acceptable" for other countries to use those tactics against us.

When someone else makes the same request that you acknowledge simple clear to see facts you run and hide.

Links please.

I'm on record as saying Padilla should not have been treated the way he was. Go look it up if you don't believe me.

Other countries have used worse on us. Sleep deprivation and stress positions are nothing compared to what US combatants have endured at the hands of other countries and regimes.

[Partha]

As many of you probably know, repeated waterboarding of Khalid Sheik Mohammad resulted in the capture of the Geruba Cell, a group of East Asian terrorists who were set to carry out the second wave of the 9/11 plan, which involved ramming airliners into the Library Tower in LA.

Uh, huh. You realize the leader of that cell was arrested in 2002, well before KSM was in US custody, right?

[Ddrak]

To quote someone from another board I frequent:

As many of you probably know, repeated waterboarding of Khalid Sheik Mohammad resulted in the capture of the Geruba Cell, a group of East Asian terrorists who were set to carry out the second wave of the 9/11 plan, which involved ramming airliners into the Library Tower in LA.

I hope you post back on that board that this person was completely full of shit and is making you look stupid for quoting him. Fox news (Hannity et. al.) have been saying this but it is a straight up lie. They know it, and if you did an ounce of research you'd know it to. George W. Bush himself said that particular plan was broken up in early 2002. KSM wasn't captured until 2003:

link

In 2002, we broke up a plot by KSM to hijack an airplane and fly it into the tallest building on the West Coast. During a hearing at Guantanamo Bay two months ago, KSM stated that the intended target was the Library Tower in Los Angeles.

Rationalize all you want, but you're defending torturers. Torturers are not the good guys. They have gotten more Americans killed than they have "saved". Keep defending them if you want, but in doing so you're killing your own countrymen in the long run and working your way down the long road to national oblivion.

I don't mean every Foreigner, Dd. Only hostile ones who literally want to see all our freedoms taken away (which most if not all of the hostile ones do).

First, you do mean every foreigner because you're defending people that have been in prison without any sort of trial. Maybe if you even applied your own laws to the people you capture I could take you seriously but until you drop your "one rule for me and one rule for everyone else" bigotry you're just kidding yourself and defending actions that are contrary to everything embodied in what America is supposed to stand for.

Again, a big hint - most of the "hostiles" don't actually give a shit about you any more than you give a shit about them. To them, you're a hostile. You freely admit wanting to torture, maim and kill them because they want to torture, maim and kill you. Explain the difference between your hatred and their hatred to me in the long run again because I'm not seeing it. The stupidity is the side of politics that wants to claim Christian beliefs along with individual freedoms and personal rights are the ones who are the biggest hypocrites in this, and it's sickening.

And what is the difference between what Illegal Immigrants are paid under the table (very little, in most cases) vs. Slavery (where you have to maintain a place for them to live and provide them with food so they can continue to work)? It's essentially the same thing.

I'd agree there, which is why the problem needs to be fixed and hopefully a little less violently than the last time you fixed the slavery issue over there.

Dd

[Ddrak]

For Embar, I should add that forced sleep deprivation causes permanent psychoses, just as forced prolonged stress positions cause permanent physical harm and forced simulated drowning (and any other simulated death experience) also causes permanent psychoses. All are more damaging in the long term than breaking bones etc. If you consider snapping fingers, cutting skin and other physical means of causing pain torture then you are a hypocrite to not consider the forced sleep deprivation, prolonged stress positions and simulated death experiences torture.

Note that one of the key components to torture is the lack of control over what happens to you (for a layman's introduction go watch the mythbusters episode that covered torture) so any willing subject that knows on any level that they can call it off at any time is a poor control.

I'm not sure where Embar's going with his discussion on what is and isn't torture, but it seems awfully like he's trying to downplay the seriousness of these techniques to cause permanent harm. While I don't have too much pity for the people that were subject to these things, I certainly am and continue to be disgusted by the people who think torture is just fine. The act of dehumanizing someone else dehumanizes yourself.

Dd

[Fallakin Kuvari]

As many of you probably know, repeated waterboarding of Khalid Sheik Mohammad resulted in the capture of the Geruba Cell, a group of East Asian terrorists who were set to carry out the second wave of the 9/11 plan, which involved ramming airliners into the Library Tower in LA.

Uh, huh. You realize the leader of that cell was arrested in 2002, well before KSM was in US custody, right?

Correct, after the bombing of some club in Bali. I did a little more reading last night and if we got the Guraba cell because of anyone it was because of him.

[Fallakin Kuvari]

I don't know if you've noticed Dd, but we're seemingly already at the point of national oblivion. Obama wants to take all those preferred stocks in companies that received TARP money to common stock so that he can have a majority share in most if not all of those companies. If this doesn't scream nationalization to anyone, they're out of their minds. Of course this is going to be painted as the government wanting to make sure that these companies spend the money correctly, but really its just government take over.

Its no wonder so many of those companies and the banks are scrambling to pay back the TARP funds they received. They would rather take their chances with failure than have this happen.

[Rsak]

Sorry Lurker but I am not gonna waste my time providing you links you can find yourself just so you can insult me while you ignore clear facts. It was just a PSA on your behavior.