Torture ineffective

[Embar Angylwrath]

Is the solitary confinement of prisoners in the US prison system torture?

Is forced physical exertion and mental stress of boot camp torture?

[Lurker]

Is the solitary confinement of prisoners in the US prison system torture?

Do they combine it with sleep deprivation, stress positions, temperature extremes, etc... and allow it to go on for months?

Is forced physical exertion and mental stress of boot camp torture?

What an idiotic question. Absolutely moronic.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Nice dodge.

Your premise seems to be its the frame of mind of the recipient that defines torture. I don't buy that at all.

[Harlowe]

Embar come on, boot camp is something you sign up for.

[Lurker]

Nice dodge.

Hardly. I gave the question the response it deserved. Durrr.... are we torturing our soldiers during boot camp??? durrr.....

Your premise seems to be its the frame of mind of the recipient that defines torture. I don't buy that at all.

My premise was perfectly clear but you still seemed to miss it. Imagine that. It has nothing to do with the "frame of mind of the recipient" and I never implied anything like that.

Repeating... even something as mundane as being forced to stand for hours in a stress position is torture when combined with other techniques and it goes on for weeks, months, and years.

It's clear that you know nothing about what we've done.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Embar come on, boot camp is something you sign up for.

Which is EXACTLY my point. Lurker seems to maintain (and you've bought into it) that itsreally isn't the process an individual is subjected to, its the mindset of the individual. If you volunteer for the treatment, its not torture. But the same or similar treatment, when applied involuntarily, suddenly becomes torture.

That's like saying ice cream really isn't ice cream unless the person whos eating it says it is.

And Lurker is still dodging the solitary confinement question.

[Baginns Hobbiton]

Hey there,

If I was chained with my hands to the ceiling and my feet to the floor and left there for hours or even days at a time, I'm pretty sure I would call it torture. When the doctor came in to measure the swelling in my legs to make sure that there would not be any "permanent" damage, I would hope he would call it torture too. Stress positions are more than just uncomfortable. I've been trapped underwater before and I can tell you that there is not anything quite like the unbridled terror that comes with not being able to breath or escape. Then there are all the other techniques that I imagine are quite nasty when used together.

As a citizen, I'm outraged at what my country has been doing during the past administration and am very relieved that the current one has ended these acts. How can we lead the world if we can't even abide by something as universally accepted as the Geneva Convention? What good is it to secure (allegedly) our nation by sacrificing its core values? Personally, I would rather run the risk of dying in an attack then see my nation place its morals upon the alter of security.

[Baginns Hobbiton]

Hey there,

But the same or similar treatment, when applied involuntarily, suddenly becomes torture.

This the case with a lot of things. Voluntary sex is great, but it's called rape otherwise.

[Lurker]

Nice posts Baginns. Well said.

Now back to the idiocy...

And Lurker is still dodging the solitary confinement question.

I didn't dodge the solitary confinement question. I answered it and you completely missed my point. That goes a long way to explaining why you think I'm chalking it up to frame of mind. Try reading it again.

[Embar Angylwrath]

The closer anaology would be if someone is fucking you, and you turn around and fuck them back, that someone can't claim rape...

[Embar Angylwrath]

Ok Lurker, then what you're saying that its the combination that makes it torture, not the individual acts themselves? Its a question of amount?

[Lurker]

I wouldn't say "amounts". I'd just say that the cumulative affect of multiple techniques makes it torture.

It's easy to laugh off making someone stand for hours a day. Hell, Rumsfeld stood for hours a day volunatarily and it wasn't torture, right? It's less easy to laugh off what actually went on. The person wasn't just standing for hours a day. The standing was combined with all the other authorized techniques in a neverending rotation, for weeks and months and years, until the person was destroyed as a human being.

[Partha]

I would rather run the risk of dying in an attack then see my nation place its morals upon the alter of security.

This is how you differ from 'patriots' like Embar, in that they will cheerfully throw YOUR rights on the fire and lose their sense of moral values to save their lives from a mostly imaginary threat.

[Embar Angylwrath]

I wouldn't say "amounts". I'd just say that the cumulative affect of multiple techniques makes it torture.

It's easy to laugh off making someone stand for hours a day. Hell, Rumsfeld stood for hours a day volunatarily and it wasn't torture, right? It's less easy to laugh off what actually went on. The person wasn't just standing for hours a day. The standing was combined with all the other authorized techniques in a neverending rotation, for weeks and months and years, until the person was destroyed as a human being.

So you're saying that its ok to apply those techniques, but only in moderation? Are any of those techniques that in and of themselves constitute torture?

[Lurker]

Before we engage in a hypothetical discussion of whether A, B or C are torture when taken in isolation, can you agree that what we did in reality (rotation of A,B,C etc. for weeks, months and years) was torture?

[Arkaron]

Maybe the spooks were just getting their jollies putting a sand nigger to the water?

You might like Fighting for American Manhood, by Kristin L. Hoganson. There's a limited copy on Google Books if you want to have a look.

[Arkaron]

So you're saying that its ok to apply those techniques, but only in moderation? Are any of those techniques that in and of themselves constitute torture?

Sleep deprivation and being screamed at for hours? While those may not be "torture" in the Spanish Inquisition sense that we tend to invoke, they do cause things like PTSD.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Before we engage in a hypothetical discussion of whether A, B or C are torture when taken in isolation, can you agree that what we did in reality (rotation of A,B,C etc. for weeks, months and years) was torture?

No, we can't agree, because I don't agree. Why does my agreement have anything to do with the question I asked. I sense another dodge coming on.

[Lurker]

Another dodge? Oh... you must mean your attempts to divert the conversation with hypothetical questions and bad analogies.

Sorry. If you think we just made some people "uncomfortable" then you are ignorant about what we did, and if we can't agree on basic facts about what we did there's not much point delving into hypotheticals.

[Kulaf]

Unless/Until we see full transcripts of everything that occured there is no way to determine the effectiveness of the technique.

Ha! You sure do set a high bar when you want to excuse something as dreadful as state sponsored torture.

I wasn't ascribing any moral justification......nor was I "excusing" anything. I was simply pointing out that if you want to say an interrogation method was "ineffective" then you need to examine all of the evidence.....not bits and pieces.