Torture ineffective

[Ddrak]

link
So, remind me again what the point of waterboarding KSM 183 times was? After that, I'm pretty sure he'd admit to killing JFK, Abe Lincoln and also being Jimmy Hoffa in disguise. Despite what you think of him, that sort of behavior from the CIA is just fucking stupid.

Seems the "gave in after just 35 seconds" line on Zubaydah was bullshit too, or maybe the other 82 times were just for fun?

Dd

[Arkaron]

THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS.

I don't know why we torture people. It doesn't appear to work.

[Partha]

Maybe the spooks were just getting their jollies putting a sand nigger to the water?

[Garrdor]

Waterboardin' USA

[Rsak]

None of the reports I have seen really have been clear on what a session of waterboarding entails. Are we talking about each session being each time the covering and water is applied or each visit from interrogators?

If he took 20-30 waterboardings in one visit to actually start talking (30 seconds of waterboarding, breath, 30 seconds of waterboarding, etc..) then 183 really doesn't shock me.

If these were separate visits, then yeah it seems a bit excessive.

[Kulaf]

Unless/Until we see full transcripts of everything that occured there is no way to determine the effectiveness of the technique.

[Embar Angylwrath]

I understand that of all the detainees, only 2-3 were waterboarded.

[Partha]

I also understand that only a few were killed during capture, too. That makes it ok?

[Lurker]

Unless/Until we see full transcripts of everything that occured there is no way to determine the effectiveness of the technique.

Ha! You sure do set a high bar when you want to excuse something as dreadful as state sponsored torture.

[Embar Angylwrath]

I also understand that only a few were killed during capture, too. That makes it ok?

Are you saying that legitimate capture methods preclude any chance of death during capture?

@ Lurker - I had no idea the waterboarding technique was so judiciously applied. Only three people? Is it still bad? Sure. Was it as rampant and systemic as was protrayed? Apparently not. And it seems they applied the "ticking time bomb" perspective to the decision to waterboard.

[Partha]

Are you saying that legitimate capture methods preclude any chance of death during capture?

Um, dude? If you're in a position to waterboard them, THEY'RE ALREADY CAPTURED

[Embar Angylwrath]

If they are already captured, why did you say "death during capture"? Did you mean to say "death while in captivity"?

[Lurker]

Waterboarding wasn't the only torture method we used.

Sure, you might not consider temperature extremes, bright lights, stress positions, loud noise, sleep deprivation, solitary confinement (to name a few) to be torture... but you are wrong.

We subjected people to combinations of these techniques for months and years at a time. We destroyed people through the use of torture.

And spare me the "ticking time bomb" excuse. This isn't an episode of "24". There's been no indication that they gathered any useful intelligence through our use of torture. On the other hand, torture was used to find a link between Saddam and Al-qaeda and to justify the Iraq War. How'd that work out for us?

[Partha]

If they are already captured, why did you say "death during capture"? Did you mean to say "death while in captivity"?

Yep. What I meant to say was, that if only a few people died in captivity, then that makes it ok? Because your sentence structure makes it look like since only a few people were waterboarded, that it's more ok than if we had done it to carlots. Which is silly.

[Partha]

Delete, wrong thread.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Sure, you might not consider temperature extremes, bright lights, stress positions, loud noise, sleep deprivation, solitary confinement (to name a few) to be torture... but you are wrong.

Just by saying I am wrong doesn't make it so.

Techniques that make a person think they are going to die.. torture.

Techniques that cause them to become uncomfortable and cranky.. not so much.

[Embar Angylwrath]

The Obama adminsitration caught with conflicting messages on waterboarding...

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0409/21569.html

President Barack Obama’s attempt to project legal and moral clarity on coercive CIA interrogation methods has instead done the opposite — creating confusion and political vulnerability over an issue that has inflamed both the left and right.

In the most recent instance, Director of National Intelligence Dennis Blair acknowledged in a memo to the intelligence community that Bush-era interrogation practices yielded had "high-value information,” then omitted that admission from a public version of his assessment.

That leaves a top Obama administration official appearing to validate claims by former Vice President Dick Cheney that waterboarding and other techniques the White House regards as torture were effective in preventing terrorist attacks. And the press release created the impression the administration was trying to suppress this conclusion.

And...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30335592/

WASHINGTON - President Obama’s national intelligence director told colleagues in a private memo last week that the harsh interrogation techniques banned by the White House did produce significant information that helped the nation in its struggle with terrorists.

“High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa’ida organization that was attacking this country,” Adm. Dennis C. Blair, the intelligence director, wrote in a memo to his staff last Thursday

[Lurker]

Just by saying I am wrong doesn't make it so.

Techniques that make a person think they are going to die.. torture.

Techniques that cause them to become uncomfortable and cranky.. not so much.

What a glib (and false) description what we actually did to people.

You're wrong and you know it, Embar. If you had to endure the torture we inflicted on people, sometimes for months and years, you'd have no doubt in what was left of your mind on how to label the treatment.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Sorry man, I just don't think that making someone uncomfortable, tired, sore or stressed out is torture. Making them think they are going to die and brining them to the brink of death? Yes, torture. Inflicting great physical pain? Yes, torture. Sleep deprivation? No. Stess positions? No. Making the room cold or warm? No. Yelling and screaming at them? No. Not giving them feather pillows? No. Forcing them to read Rsak's posts? Borderline.

[Lurker]

"Uncomfortable". As I said, how glib.

Embar, even something as mundane as being forced to stand for hours in a stress position is torture when combined with other techniques and it goes on for weeks, months, and years.

Describing it as "making someone uncomfortable" shows your wilful ignorance.