Same Sex Marriage in Iowa

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

That was back when children were beaten the way they should be, but they sat still, didn't fidget, didn't speak until spoken too... the little Amish kids now still amaze me, they're perfectly behaved in public, even the toddlers.

[Taxious]

Ari, do you spank your children? If I was ever going to have kids, I'd beat the shit out of them when they misbehaved. It worked well on my sister and I.

[Arathena]

That was back when children were beaten the way they should be, but they sat still, didn't fidget, didn't speak until spoken too... the little Amish kids now still amaze me, they're perfectly behaved in public, even the toddlers.

“Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers.”

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

/parenting fail

I do spank, as situations warrant, i use a kitchen utensil on older children and my hand on younger children, 5 whacks, never on a bare bottom... and i told CPS that as well, the case worker agreed

[Jarochai Alabaster]

That was back when children were beaten the way they should be, but they sat still, didn't fidget, didn't speak until spoken too... the little Amish kids now still amaze me, they're perfectly behaved in public, even the toddlers.

“Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers.”

In any given society there are going to be ups and downs. Some generations will have better behaved children than others. Just because the children in ancient Greece were deviant enough for Socrates to comment on them doesn't mean that our children today aren't deviant in comparison to other generations of American children. Given that this is, IMO, primarily a result of parenting, changes in social perception of what parenting tactics "work" will lead to ups and downs in the behavior of children in general. Quoting lines about disobedient children from thousands of years ago doesn't really say a damned thing about children today or in more recent history.

[Fallakin Kuvari]

/facepalm, Dd... You should brush up on your American History. Founders did lay out groundwork for everyone to get an education as they felt it was a requirement for the livelihood of the republic.

[Partha]

Um, no. No, they didn't, dude.

I presume you're thinking of the General Diffusion of Knowledge bill that Jefferson proposed? Yep, every kid would have gotten three years of free education...and then they would have cherry-picked the best ones for continuing education.

Every overseer of the hundred schools shall, in the month of September annually, after the most diligent and impartial examination and enquiry, appoint from among 'the boys who shall have been two Years at the least at some one of the schools under his superintendance, and whose parents are too Poor to give them farther education, some one of the best and most promising genius and disposition, to Proceed to the grammar school of his district; which appointment shall be made in the court-house of the county, on the court day for that month if fair, and if not, then on the next fair day, excluding Sunday, in the presence of the Aldermen, or two of them at the least, assembled on the bench for that purpose, the said overseer being previously sworn by them to make such appointment, without favor or affection, according to the best of his skill and judgment, and being interrogated by the said Aldermen, either on their own motion, or on suggestions from the parents, guardians, friends, or teachers of the children, competitors for such appointment; which teachers shall attend for the information of the Aldermen. On which interrogatories the said Aldermen, if they be not satisfied with the appointment proposed, shall have right to negative it; whereupon the said visiter may proceed to make a new appointment, and the said Aldermen again to interrogate and negative, and so toties quoties until an appointment be approved.

Every boy so appointed shall be authorised to Proceed to the grammar school of his district, there to be educated and bearded during such time as is hereafter limited; and his quota of the expences of the house together with a compensation to the master or usher for his tuition, at the rate of twenty dollars by the year, shall be paid by the Treasurer quarterly on warrant from the Auditors.

A visitation shall be held, for the purpose of probation, annually at the said grammar school on the last Monday in September, if fair, and if not, then on the next fair day, excluding Sunday, at which one third of the boys sent thither by appointment of the said overseers, and who shall have been there one year only, shall be discontinued as public foundationers, being those who, on the most diligent examination and enquiry, shall be thought to be of the least promising genius and disposition; and of those who shall have been there two years, all shall be discontinued, save one only the best in genius and disposition, who shall be at liberty to continue there four years longer on the public foundation, and shall thence forward be deemed a senior.

Universal education for all, my ass. Oh, and go fuck yourself while you're at it.

[Ddrak]

/facepalm, Dd... You should brush up on your American History. Founders did lay out groundwork for everyone to get an education as they felt it was a requirement for the livelihood of the republic.

Never happened though. Groundwork or not, education remained the privilege of those wealthy enough to not have to work. Jefferson and Franklin had good ideals but they were the ideals of the wealthy and educated and not the poor (though admittedly they were getting closer to the mark than any before them).

It wasn't until the end of the Industrial Revolution in the early 19th century that people other than the independently wealthy actually could afford to not have their children work.

Dd

[Fallakin Kuvari]

Art. 3. Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.

There shall be reserved for the United States out of every township, the four lots, being numbered, 8, 11, 26, 29, and out of every fractional part of a township, so many lots of the same numbers as shall be found thereon. There shall be reserved the lot No. 16 of every township, for the maintenance of public schools within the said township. Also one third part of all gold, silver, lead and copper mines, to be sold, or otherwise disposed of, as Congress shall hereafter direct.

"If we continue to be a happy people, that happiness must be assured by the enacting and executing of the reasonable and wise laws expressed in the plainest language and by establishing such modes of education as tend to inculcate in the minds of youth the feelings and habits of piety, religion and morality."

"You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention."

"Religion is the only solid basis of good morals; therefore education should teach the precepts of religion and the duties of man towards God."

"Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited. ... What a Utopia. What a Paradise would this region be. I have examined all (religions)… and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world. It contains more of my little philosophy than all the libraries I have seen."

This is why you're both wrong. The groundwork had been laid in both the Land Ordinance of 1785 (setting aside land for schools and allowing the townships to tax for said schools) and in the Northwest Ordinance (the 3rd most important document in American History). The Founders views on education was very clear both through these documents and their own words.

The groundwork was used as well, setting up Miami University and other Public colleges in the Northwest as well as schools for the public in townships.

[Harlowe]

That looks more like laying the groundwork for religious indoctrination and teaching as opposed to universal public education for all.

[Ddrak]

It's a cherrypicked bunch of quotes, mostly out of context, that try to say the founding fathers were all for religion in schools. Fact is, it's a lie. Most of the founding fathers weren't even Christian in the sense it's thrown around today and they firmly believed in the separation of church and state. Sure, they were *affiliated* with certain churches but that was commonplace for the time and certainly didn't reflect personal beliefs.

What's more, the quotes aren't even good quotes. Take, for example, John Adams. The diary (2/22/1756) actually says:

22nd, Sunday. Suppos a nation in some distant Region, should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited. Every member would be obliged in Concience to temperance and frugality and industry, to justice and kindness and Charity towards his fellow men, and to Piety and Love, and reverence towards almighty God. In this Commonwealth, no man would impair his health by Gluttony, drunkenness, or Lust-no man would sacrifice his most precious time to cards, or any other trifling and mean amusement-no man would steal or lie or any way defraud his neighbour, but would live in peace and good will with all men-no man would blaspheme his maker or prophane his Worship, but a rational and manly, a sincere and unaffected Piety and devotion, would reign in all hearts. What a Eutopa, what a Paradise would this region be. Heard Thayer all Day. He preach'd well.

Spent the Evening at Coll. Chandlers, with Putnam, Gardiner, Thayer, the Dr. and his Lady, in Conversation, upon the present scituation of publick affairs, with a few observations concerning Heroes and great Commanders. Alexander, Charles 12th., Cromwel.

Note the fabrication at the end of Fallakin's quote, which was probably taken out of context from some other entry? Also note that he's quoting the sermon he heard that day and writing it down, as he frequently did in his diaries.

Taking some other quotes of his rather than his Sunday diary entries we find:

Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, 'this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!

Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?

The Doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.

Jefferson and Franklin are even more damning of Christianity and its role in government.


On education, we look at the Founding Fathers' true intent and find:

By... [selecting] the youths of genius from among the classes of the poor, we hope to avail the State of those talents which nature has sown as liberally among the poor as the rich, but which perish without use if not sought for and cultivated.

Hmm... only educating the "youths of genius"? Well, that's not so bad until you see how many he thought there may be worth educating:

By this means twenty of the best geniusses will be raked from the rubbish annually.

Oh yeah - 20 kids a year. That's sure a good public education for the colonies!

Now, of course, Jefferson did also say:

Convinced that the people are the only safe depositories of their own liberty, and that they are not safe unless enlightened to a certain degree, I have looked on our present state of liberty as a short-lived possession unless the mass of the people could be informed to a certain degree.

Fair enough - but only a certain degree. Wonder what that is? Reading on...

The mass of our citizens may be divided into two classes -- the laboring and the learned. The laboring will need the first grade of education to qualify them for their pursuits and duties; the learned will need it as a foundation for further acquirements.

Yep - the ignorant masses need to be educated to the first grade. Only the people who are above working need a proper education. Awesome fellow isn't he? Fact is, if it wasn't for his knowledge that people need some education to maintain the Republic he was creating, he wouldn't even worry about that much education.

Also note (as I said before) that this very minor level of education was available to anyone whose parents could spare them from their duties. In short, like I said, if you could afford for your kids to be not working, then and only then would they get an education. It wasn't until the close of the Industrial Revolution that education became more widespread as the load on the lower classes was reduced.

Looking further to Benjamin Rush (Thoughts Upon the Mode of Education Proper in a Republic), we find the following recipe for Fascist indoctrination:

The principle of patriotism stands in need of the reinforcement of prejudice, and it is well known that our strongest prejudices in favor of our country are formed in the first one and twenty years of our lives.
...
Our schools of learning, by producing one general and uniform system of education, will render the mass of the people more homogeneous and thereby fit them more easily for uniform and peaceable government.
...
Next to the duty which young men owe to their Creator, I wish to see a SUPREME REGARD TO THEIR COUNTRY [caps in original] inculcated upon them.... Let our pupil be taught that he does not belong to himself, but that he is public property. Let him be taught to love his family, but let him be taught at the same time that he must forsake and even forget them when the welfare of his country requires it.
...
In the education of youth, let the authority of our masters be as absolute as possible.... By this mode of education, we prepare our youth for the subordination of laws and thereby qualify them for becoming good citizens of the republic. I am satisfied that the most useful citizens have been formed from those youth who have never known or felt their own wills till they were one and twenty years of age....

Yep - render the masses peaceful and fit for governing. Kids belong to the country and not themselves. No free will until 21. That's the perfect education for a Republic, right? Hmm... maybe a Socialist Soviet one at least?


Face it, Fallakin, you've been misled by a wonderful tale of how awesome the Founding Fathers were and completely missed the reality of life in the late 1700s. The majority of people worked hard for a living and only those who were rich enough to not have to worry about work had the time to even think about education and schools. It really wasn't a common thing and the Founding Fathers sure weren't establishing any sort of wonderful public schooling system for the full education of the population. That's a fantasy propagated by misguided rewriters of history - people who really need to educate themselves more than pumping their stupid ideas about the wonderful American life post-revolution.

While I certainly don't profess Ayn Rand as any prophet of political theory, the Rand Institute got the sentiments of the Founding Fathers on religion spot on: http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?id=6177

Dd

[Fallakin Kuvari]

Dd /owned.

Eloquently put sir, Partha couldn't have laid down that kind of pwnage.

(I realized time were different and that lots of people didn't get educated because of farmwork/pioneering/whatnot)

[Taxious]

Yeah, Dd, nice job there. I found that post interesting enough to email to a friend.

[Harlowe]

/facepalm, Dd... You should brush up on your American History.

This honestly made me chuckle....I mean seriously, how could you write that with a straight face.

[Fallakin Kuvari]

I didn't, honestly... I knew it was bullshit but said it anyway. I'm quite sure Dd knows more about everything than I do.

[Harlowe]

Well you aren't alone there, I think he knows more than a lot of us. My favorite is watching Ddrak, Lurker and Embar having a discussion about ...well just about anything.

[Taxious]

My favorite is watching Ddrak, Lurker and Embar having a discussion about ...well just about anything.

Ara too, but yeah, it's always interesting to read those.

[Trollbait]

I would say that one of the paramount authorities on our Constitution and the role of religion in our government would be James Madison, oft called the Father of the Constitution.

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."

Contrarily here is a very important quote by John Adams, whom I admire greatly as the driving force for liberty in his age.

"We have no government armed in power capable of contending with
human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Our
Constitution was made only for a religious and moral people.
It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other."

The above quote is worth contemplation and should be taken into the discussion, though it may not mean what some would want it to mean.

[Arkaron]

Would anyone here be interested in doing say, a weekly question/answer thing? Beyond the threads that come up, like almost an essay prompt? American history and foreign relations.

[Kulaf]

Jecks brings up an important point.....in that the collective good will of the ruled maintains the rule.

I often examine the teachings of Gandhi and marvel sometimes at his hubris. His successes with the British were only gained because in the end the British people would not tolerate what it would have taken to put down an Indian uprising. When Gandhi asserted that Hitler could be stopped with non-violence I shake my head and wonder if the mans humility was suffering just a bit.