Designer Babies

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

I'm under the impression based on indirect person experiences that when a child is given up for adoption the parents that are to receive the child, if on a state adoption list, are immediately notified and they pick up the baby when it's discharged from the hospital, which can be immediately after various blood tests, since the recovery time in the hospital is more for the mother then the baby, unless a NICU stay is required. There for the same 2 day stay is paid for and I believe the adoptive parents are responsible for a certain amount of the cost. I don't know how this applies to preemies however, that are being given up for adoption.

[Arathena]

Also I haven't done the research, really, but what are some examples of the mothers life being in peril if she keeps the baby ? Pre-Eclampsia where the only cure is delivery ? I mean i understand the 9 year old with twins, but are there any other examples ?

Just one example: Ectopic / tubal pregnancies are probably the most common. In about 1 in 200 pregnancies, the egg will implant somewhere it's not supposed to, generally up in the fallopian tubes. While this can be remedied if caught early enough, if it is not, the fetus will: A: starve as it grows, and B: rupture the woman's internal organs to make room for itself. In this case, the child is almost universally dead at delivery, and usually takes the mother with it.

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

I wouldn't consider a tubal pregnancy to be the same thing Ara. They're normally caught in time because someone experiences intense stomach pains, goes to the ER and has emergency surgery to remove the whole tube. We used to get women in the ER all the time complaining of pain, because they wanted an ultrasound and they couldn't be seen by the doctor until they were after 10 weeks. That's a situation where we're not talking a 20 week fetus because it won't last that long, the mother will be dead long before then we're talking 4 weeks in, 9 weeks in is about max, and it's rare for something like that to go uncaught and untreated.

[Arathena]

I wouldn't consider a tubal pregnancy to be the same thing Ara. They're normally caught in time because someone experiences intense stomach pains, goes to the ER and has emergency surgery to remove the whole tube. We used to get women in the ER all the time complaining of pain, because they wanted an ultrasound and they couldn't be seen by the doctor until they were after 10 weeks. That's a situation where we're not talking a 20 week fetus because it won't last that long, the mother will be dead long before then we're talking 4 weeks in, 9 weeks in is about max, and it's rare for something like that to go uncaught and untreated.

You asked for pregnancies that could kill. And, remember, outside of America / Europe / Japan, what you expect to get caught isn't always. Or take Colombia, where the mother's health exemption didn't exist, and all they could do was stick tubals in the maternity ward until something burst and the fetus died. Only after that, were they permitted to attempt to save the mother's life.

I imagine an improperly managed gestational diabetes could get complicated for a pure late termer, though.

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

You asked for pregnancies that could kill. And, remember, outside of America / Europe / Japan, what you expect to get caught isn't always. Or take Colombia, where the mother's health exemption didn't exist, and all they could do was stick tubals in the maternity ward until something burst and the fetus died. Only after that, were they permitted to attempt to save the mother's life.

I imagine an improperly managed gestational diabetes could get complicated for a pure late termer, though.

You're right, but since we live in America I wasn't thinking outside the box apparently. Gestational diabetes (most of the time) is managed with diet, they won't give mothers insulin, thats not always the case of course, and it makes for a larger baby (i was borderline with my 2nd and 3rd children, they were 10 and 9 lbs respectively) but it won't kill exactly. Again of course the cure is delivery much like pre-eclampsia where they do deliver babies early, but it's not considered a risk to the mothers life to the point of an abortion, just management, watching and early and emergency delivery if necessary. I see where you're going with this though

[Arathena]

You're right, but since we live in America I wasn't thinking outside the box apparently. Gestational diabetes (most of the time) is managed with diet, they won't give mothers insulin, thats not always the case of course, and it makes for a larger baby (i was borderline with my 2nd and 3rd children, they were 10 and 9 lbs respectively) but it won't kill exactly. Again of course the cure is delivery much like pre-eclampsia where they do deliver babies early, but it's not considered a risk to the mothers life to the point of an abortion, just management, watching and early and emergency delivery if necessary. I see where you're going with this though

Exceptions, unfortunately, exist. Failing to allow for them ends up with adult women suffering and dying. The whole point I'm trying to make is: Shit happens. And it happens worse to the poor, to the ignorant, and the otherwise disadvantaged.

Plus, the next question is: What do you do to doctors(Or, forbid, non-doctors) that perform the procedure anyway? What do you do to women that get the procedure performed? I saw someone float the word murder in this thread. Here in PA, murder of the first or second degree comes with a mandatory sentence of life without parole, and with enough aggrivating circumstance, death. Fair?

[Select]

I was looking at a thread somewhere else, where someone said than they have yet to meet a pro-lifer that when cornered, will admit to thinking it's acceptable to charge the woman or doctors with murder. They're more for going after the clinics themselves. The people who would say that exist, though and I wonder if we have anyone like that on the forum. (Strictly American speaking)

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

I would be inclined to believe the thought process leans more to the Doctors are being the murderers (being the ones to actually perform the procedure) and the mothers as being accessories... if pressed hard enough. Perhaps charging the secretaries and nurses as accessories as well, provided we're talking about the say 27 week abortion, as opposed to the first trimester abortion. Depending on the wording of the question, who's asking it and what he rest of the discussion was of course. I'd ask my father but I'm still fuming a bit over our last argument as well as the fact he's out of the country for 2 weeks.

And Ara yes I was thinking very inside the box of typical American problems and solutions. There's NO excuse for any American, or anyone living in America to NOT have prenatal care what with medical assistance covering a pregnancy of single or poor mothers if nothing else. Like the woman here who was originally charged with murder on about 16 cases due to the dead babies in her backyard. Turns out she never had prenatal care, and there's simply no excuse.

[Arathena]

Unfortunately, when it comes to human behavior, declaring "shouldn't happen" and "irrational" is like pissing into the teeth of a class 5 hurricane. When we do not compensate for human stupidity, we only make things worse.

[Harlowe]

Unfortunately, when it comes to human behavior, declaring "shouldn't happen" and "irrational" is like pissing into the teeth of a class 5 hurricane. When we do not compensate for human stupidity, we only make things worse.

Well said.

[Fobbon Lazyfoot]

I don't understand why it's such a big deal. It's just artificial selection at the fertilization stage. People have been aborting kids with down syndrome since amniocentesis was invented.

[Garrdor]

[Partha]

I would be inclined to believe the thought process leans more to the Doctors are being the murderers (being the ones to actually perform the procedure) and the mothers as being accessories... if pressed hard enough. Perhaps charging the secretaries and nurses as accessories as well, provided we're talking about the say 27 week abortion, as opposed to the first trimester abortion. Depending on the wording of the question, who's asking it and what he rest of the discussion was of course. I'd ask my father but I'm still fuming a bit over our last argument as well as the fact he's out of the country for 2 weeks.

Oh, no, it's not that easy.

The state itself is clearly an accessory by allowing the doctor to commit murder.

The school that gave the doctor a diploma is an accessory by giving the doctor the skills necessary to murder the child.

By extension, anyone who ever helped pay for that school was funding a murderer.

Six degrees of Kevin Bacon later, we can stop by mowing down all the protesters in front of the clinic 10 minutes before we detonate all the nukes in the world.

And of course, it's a silly argument, but it's equally silly to drop a blobbish invertibrate on a table and saying, 'There's your kid! Some assembly required.'

[Embar Angylwrath]

I'm betting Partha is a close genetic relative to Ted Kaczynski.

How's cabin livin' Partha?

[Ddrak]

but it's equally silly to drop a blobbish invertibrate on a table and saying, 'There's your kid! Some assembly required.'

Any time after gastrolation it's vertibrate, so if it's big enough to "drop" then it's got a backbone.

Dd

[Partha]

I'm betting Partha is a close genetic relative to Ted Kaczynski.

How's cabin livin' Partha?

Wouldn't know. Remind us again which one of us is professing a belief that would logically mean abortion doctors are murderers and should be dealt with?

[Harlowe]

I think that might qualify as an .

[Alluveal]

Also I haven't done the research, really, but what are some examples of the mothers life being in peril if she keeps the baby ? Pre-Eclampsia where the only cure is delivery ? I mean i understand the 9 year old with twins, but are there any other examples ?

Just one example: Ectopic / tubal pregnancies are probably the most common. In about 1 in 200 pregnancies, the egg will implant somewhere it's not supposed to, generally up in the fallopian tubes. While this can be remedied if caught early enough, if it is not, the fetus will: A: starve as it grows, and B: rupture the woman's internal organs to make room for itself. In this case, the child is almost universally dead at delivery, and usually takes the mother with it.

I saw this special on cable about Stone Babies. Where the fetus ruptures the fallopian tubes, then attaches itself to an organ or the outside of the placenta. The body then calcifies it in order to protect itself. Some lady in India had one in her for what, 20 years? It was completely covered in bone when they finally removed it. Creepy!

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

Yes but then at that point it wasn't exactly life threatening now was it =D I've seen the same thing Allu, talk about creepy indeed !