1 in 30 in US part of the prison system!?

[Ddrak]

link

One in every 31 U.S. adults is in the corrections system, which includes jail, prison, probation and supervision, more than double the rate of a quarter century ago, according to a report released on Monday by the Pew Center on the States.

...

The United States has the highest incarceration rate and the biggest prison population of any country in the world, according to figures from the U.S. Department of Justice.

Georgia has 1 in 13; Idaho has 1 in 18; Texas has 1 in 22 and DC around 1 in 20.

Source Doc

The IHT had an interesting article a while back on the relative position between the US and the rest of the world:

IHT Article

interesting quote is the part about 500,000 new drug related prisoners in the US.

Dd

[Freecare Spiritwise]

I think the number is something like 1 in 4 for black males. It's sad that the likelyhood of a person being in prison has much more to do with race/social status than it does the actual harm caused to society. And even one in 30 is too much.

It's a messed up system. We have the highest incarceration rate in the civilized world and I don't see where it's made us any safer.

I guess the real questions is: What is the purpose of incarceration, punishment or rehabilitation? We're focusing on punishment and not doing what it takes to keep these people from re-offending. We're not addressing the root issues of society. Well, maybe we are, but not in any way that makes sense.

Funny thing is we'd probably get better results from something like Sharia. Chop someone's hand off and I doubt they'll steal again. There's your brutal punishment and a clear deterrent all in the same blow.

But we should really be looking at what we expect from members of society and how to handle people who will not conform to those expectations. Clearly some of the solution should involve changing some of our expectations. We need to focus on the real bad guys, which we can't do with such a broad definition of what's bad.

There's so much we can do to improve our justice system. Or /shrug we'll just throw more money at the naked emperor. We've got money to burn, right?

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

Technically I'm one of those as well, having received PBJ for a DUI i'm serving 3 years probation. What really bothers me about the whole thing (minus the 3 years probation for a first offense and it's not as if i blew a .25 or something) is that they keep changing things around when I go to probation (I was going once a week for the first 2 years, don't ask me why) but for awhile they had people like me, on probation for a "minor offense" in with the guys on parole who were seriously hardened criminals. Some of them were brought in by the police officers in chains and handcuffs =/ When i was doing my community service I actually had some pretty good chats with a couple of the guys there on work release, and the problem is that people are deluded when it comes to rehabilitation. When you let someone out of prison but still give them nothing to help support themselves with then you've essentially let them go with nothing. I'm not saying that everyone can be fixed, I'm just saying that things within the system need to be reworked. One of the guys was telling me that their work release program doesn't allow you to be on work release for X number of months, by the time you actually get to start working at ALL then you're about to get out and they no longer help you. While you're in jail the prison drives you to a meeting point, where the chicken plant sends a bus to pick people up. You're charged for both services, money comes right out of your paycheck. It's SUPPOSED to work where the prison holds the majority of your paycheck for you until you get out, so when you're released you have some money, which means if you have no where to go you can get an apartment or go t the homeless shelter, which will also hold the majority of your paycheck and aid you in finding a place to live, however you can stay at the homeless shelter as long as you have a job... anyway it all sounds good in theory, and most people have no where to go, once they're out of jail they can't go to their job even at the chicken plant because they have no way to get there as the transportation has been taken away as well..

I have no good ideas, just concerns

[Embar Angylwrath]

Eliminate prison (but not punishment) for non-violent offenses, especially drug/alcohol abuse/possession, and that figure would likely drop by half or more. Also eliminate the three-strikes provisions in the states that have them, and mandatory sentencing.

California is a good example of a criminal incarceration system gone awry. People get elected on a "tough on crime" platform, but California isn't really building enough new prisons to house the ever growing prison population. The state has just been oredered to release many thousands of inmates to reduce overcrowding, however the judge has stayed the order for a bit to allow the state to prepare to do so in an orderly fashion. So the end result is going to be the same... low-risk non-violent offenders will be released back into the population, and the state will have to spend additional money to build new prisons if it wants to keep growing its prison population (ain't gonna happen, they just raised the state sales tax and still can't balance the budget without accounting hocus-pocus)

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

To build on that Embar maybe the death penalty should be used more often instead of years and years of appeals leading to an over taxation on an already overburdened system ? Building more prisons is simply putting a band-aid on a mortal wound. I mean if non violent offenders should be released,then shouldn't ultra violent offenders be taken out of the system totally ?

[Embar Angylwrath]

To build on that Embar maybe the death penalty should be used more often instead of years and years of appeals leading to an over taxation on an already overburdened system ? Building more prisons is simply putting a band-aid on a mortal wound. I mean if non violent offenders should be released,then shouldn't ultra violent offenders be taken out of the system totally ?

That makes no sense, and your statement is thoughtless, bordering on the abhorrent. The cost to adjudicate and then house a death penalty prisoner is much more than just a normal lifer. Plus, the people on death row are a tiny fraction of the overall prison population. Also, it is the height of human indifference to use a financial argument to justify additional killing by the state. Shame on you.

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

To build on that Embar maybe the death penalty should be used more often instead of years and years of appeals leading to an over taxation on an already overburdened system ? Building more prisons is simply putting a band-aid on a mortal wound. I mean if non violent offenders should be released,then shouldn't ultra violent offenders be taken out of the system totally ?

That makes no sense, and your statement is thoughtless, bordering on the abhorrent. The cost to adjudicate and then house a death penalty prisoner is much more than just a normal lifer. Plus, the people on death row are a tiny fraction of the overall prison population. Also, it is the height of human indifference to use a financial argument to justify additional killing by the state. Shame on you.

It's hardly shame on me, it's simply an observation and a question, not an accusation nor a flash of brilliance. I was simply building on your statement. Building more prisons IS a band-aid on a mortal wound, but I'm not saying it shouldn't be done. I'm also asking shouldn't the death penalties BE enforced ? I mean there's a reason people are sentenced to death, why allow such a drain on the tax payers to be able to live with zero responsibilities and many amenities for committing a heinous crime and then allowing the same person to appeal appeal appeal his way to life in prison and finally death by natural causes when the problem can be dealt with as it was intended. I'm not advocating additional killings by the state, simply carrying out the intended sentences to begin with.

Take for example a person guilty and found so and issued the death penalty for beating a pregnant woman, and her viable fetus to death. Why should such a person be allowed to continue to remain in society, albeit behind prison walls for taking a life, then not having their sentence carried out ? How many people actually given the death penalty see the sentence carried out ?

[Embar Angylwrath]

I don't know where you get the notion that death penalties aren't enforced. There were close to 40 executions across the US last year. And your position seems to be that we should just hurry up and kill more, stop wasting time. If every death row inmate were to be executed tomorrow, across the US, that would open up a whopping 3,500 (roughly) slots in prisons. If there are 7.3 million people in prison, the death row population represents less than 5% of the total prison population.

As a people, we should never.. NEVER... base the decision to take the life of a citizen on some financial spreadsheet. It's abhorrent. Your thought processes have turned to accounting praticalities, which eliminate the inclusion of humanity and a sense of rightness. Yes, shame on you. You know better.

[Lurker]

I was going to make a joke that we could reduce the number to zero by implementing mandatory death sentences for all offenses (even first time DUI offenses), but I see Ariannda beat me to the punch.

If there are 7.3 million people in prison, the death row population represents less than 5% of the total prison population.

Less than 5%? Yeah. 100 times less. No wonder you suck at economics.

[Harlowe]

As a people, we should never.. NEVER... base the decision to take the life of a citizen on some financial spreadsheet. It's abhorrent. Your thought processes have turned to accounting praticalities, which eliminate the inclusion of humanity and a sense of rightness. Yes, shame on you. You know better.

This. I'm just ....shaking my head. You want help, understanding and support for yourself & the mistakes you've made, but you are willing to put to death other people for a cost savings? How about having women fertilized that are a burden to our social services system? Actually that's more humane than what you are suggesting. You are willing to presume our justice system only finds guilty people guilty? And you also have a problem with people being able to appeal multiple times even though they are going to be put to death, because it costs too much? That's seriously fucked up.

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

I am so aggravated with you 2 right now I can't even make a coherent response... If I was Freecare I wouldn't be getting attacked for saying anything. I am not suggesting anything, I am simply asking questions which no one has bothered to answer I might add.

What about rehabilitation ? What about mandatory sentencing ? What about enforcing the death penalty for those that are not even remotely innocent (guy caught red handed in the act of murder who's made a full confession) ?

[Freecare Spiritwise]

I'm against the death penalty just because I was taught that two wrongs don't make a right. Kill those who kill to demonstrate that killing is wrong - it's kind of silly. But to be honest, I'm not going to cry any crocodile tears over most of their passings.

But my wife takes the "yeah, he probably had it coming" to mean "I condone the death penalty", which isn't the case.

/agree everyone that Ari's brain isn't firing on all cylinders today.

/agree Embar that we could cut the population in half, save some money, and probably be better off overall as a society. Though I think we'd see better results with drug and other low level offenders with education, counseling (including career counseling) and intervention than we would with punishment, or at least just strictly punishment. I think we need the carrot as well as the stick.

And of course I've always been a proponent of the legalization and subsequent taxing up the wazoo of drugs. First off, organized crime would almost disappear overnight. The drug cartels aren't terrorizing the populations of countries like Mexico over Ibuprofen, that's for sure.

[Freecare Spiritwise]

I am so aggravated with you 2 right now I can't even make a coherent response... If I was Freecare I wouldn't be getting attacked for saying anything. I am not suggesting anything, I am simply asking questions which no one has bothered to answer I might add.

If you were me, you wouldn't be taking the discussion personally. And if I made the same post you did, I'd be sticking to my guns if I truly believed that, and if it was a brain fart I'd own up to it. Who here is under the impression that they're perfect?

There's some fierce people with fierce opinions here, but if you can't take a beating for what you believe in, then maybe you should re-evaluate your beliefs. And if you're looking for validation for your beliefs, you're probably in the wrong place.

My self imposed rules for posting are:

1. I don't take it personally. If I think I'm starting to, which almost never happens, then I'll walk away from a discussion.
2. I keep it casual/informal but I always try to contribute and hopefully my posts make sense. If not, I tried.
3. I never ever post or email anything that I wouldn't be ok with my mom reading.
4. If I'm attacked/laughed at/someone throws my backpack on the ground, then I try my best to turn the other cheek.

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

*edit* somehow i got a double post

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

I guess maybe I'm not coming across clearly enough, as opposed to what I'm saying being misconstrued...

maybe the death penalty should be used more often instead of years and years of appeals leading to an over taxation on an already overburdened system ? Building more prisons is simply putting a band-aid on a mortal wound. I mean if non violent offenders should be released,then shouldn't ultra violent offenders be taken out of the system totally ?

It's not about the finances, it's about the individuals and their contribution to society.If someone is guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, caught in the act itself and making a full confession, then how can you possibly rehabilitate that person ? If they're given life without parole, and they spend life in prison, and they're educated even to the point of a doctorate degree because lets face it, they have nothing better to do with their time, then what GOOD has any of it done ? The person has made themself better as far as education goes, but are they a better person ? and at what cost ? The cost of another human beings life ? They certainly wouldn't have done so if simply left alone and had not been in prison would they ?

Let me say it again, it's not about the finances, it's about the people themselves... exactly when should and when should the death penalty NOT be enforced ? and if it's not going to be carried out then why have it at all ? If someone is given the death penalty as sentencing then why does it take YEARS for it to be carried out ? and why is that ok ?

The solution is NOT to build more prisons, it IS about the handling of the criminals themselves. That's about what I've said the whole thread...

Freecare, I'm not having a brain fart and I've said nothing wrong. I have no shame in a single thing I've said now am I looking for validation. I have yet to see any facts presented that show anything I've said is wrong, all I've seen is "for shame Ari for using finances as a legal means of murder" but I didn't sentence those people did i ? Jury by a trial of their peers found them guilty and a judge imposed a death sentence. I simply want to know why it shouldn't be carried out if it was imposed, and how thats NOT some sort of solution.

[Ninadene]

this stupid war on drugs and its subsequent lock up of many people for victimless crimes is what is creating an overflow in prision population, I think you can see how that can be fixed.

even if there is 5% of the prison population on deathrow... they make up far more in cost than your average prisoner, and that's not even factoring in the killing them part. Yes non guilty people get shafted some times, but there are also plenty of people that should have been removed from society serving 'life' with no parole. for example a number of people in the many SHUs.

Another example of California DoC failure -

Manson's death sentence was automatically reduced to life imprisonment when a decision by the Supreme Court of California temporarily eliminated the state's death penalty in 1972. California's eventual reestablishment of capital punishment did not affect Manson

I'm far to lazy to reference every instance of "why am I still paying for them to be alive". Yes I just put money on the table in favor of state killings. I believe some people forfeit their right to live in our society based on their actions. Are you really going to defend child molesters, rapists, and serial killers (to get the majority of the iceberg) from your moral high ground against human indifference? Cause I'm pretty damn indifferent to the existence of those particular types of people. And while we are talking about money... why are we subsidizing 100% of higher education of 'lifers' who will never get out of prison? How about subsidizing mine, or even better, my kids education instead. Cleaning up the corruption and general waste in the prison systems could put a lot more money in to education for our children and help keep them out of prison in the first place. Helping our kids stay out of prison is far more important to me, never mind actually attainable, than the current system's half assed rehabilitation of existing criminals who use the system as a revolving door.

How about having women fertilized that are a burden to our social services system?

I'll assume you meant sterilized. For certain people I'd agree. It's not that they are a burden to the system, its that they are mentally incapable of raising a child (and in some cases not even capable of consenting to the act of sex or understanding what pregnancy is), or that they have killed or caused intentional and serious harm to their existing children. Yes sterilize them, for their kids sake. (there is actually a precedent for this already and I'm sure you can work google on your own.)

[Embar Angylwrath]

I was going to make a joke that we could reduce the number to zero by implementing mandatory death sentences for all offenses (even first time DUI offenses), but I see Ariannda beat me to the punch.

If there are 7.3 million people in prison, the death row population represents less than 5% of the total prison population.

Less than 5%? Yeah. 100 times less. No wonder you suck at economics.

Thanks for the catch on that. The death row population, if eliminated today, all of them... would reduce the total prison population by about 0.05%, an insignificant number.

And Ari, you're not being honest now. When you link the death penalty to the reduction of tax burdens, you ARE making the death penalty a financial argument. As Harlowe pointed out, do you want social policy to be an accounting one? If so, we can eliminate a lot of tax burden by cutting off any type of social aid.

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

I'm going to erase everything I wrote and try again... You can't possibly discuss the death penalty without associating money, you're right, however I don't think it makes a difference. It's not the cost of killing someone that is expensive in the end, it's the housing, the feeding, the care of these people until their sentence is actually carried out. Why wait so long to impose the actual sentence ? If it's such a terrible thing then why have the death penalty at all ? If we lose the death penalty, and impose life without parole, how are we creating a better society AND/OR reducing the cost associated with facilities and care of such prisoners, since they can't be kept around the "lesser offending" criminals ?

We can eliminate a lot of tax burden in a lot of different ways, but the fact still remains social responsibility. How can we effectively solve the problem of needing the death penalty, or life without parole to begin with ? Isn't that the real goal ?

[Freecare Spiritwise]

Yes non guilty people get shafted some times <snip>

That just came across as casual to me, like "oops, friendly fire, sorry you're dead, someone transposed a digit, shit happens /shrug"

For me, the only reasonable number of people put to death by mistake is zero. We hate murders and rapists because of their indifference towards and disrespect for life, but the easier it becomes to kill such people and the easier it is to chalk up killing the innocent to cost of doing business, the more we become that which we hate.

Personally I'd rather err on the side of not killing the innocent.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Also, the state should not be in the business of killing its own citizenry, with the exception of the need to do so in circumstances where there is a clear and imminent danger to ther citizens (liking taking out a guy who is shooting at people). The government should impose the least amount of force necessary to protect its population, nothing more. The death penalty isn't necessary for that. Nor is it a deterrent tocrime. It serves no purpose other than revenge.