A friend of mine (more of a friend of a friend) took his life yesterday and it has gotten us talking about suicide. It sounds heartless, but maybe I've just never "gotten" it. I've always been of the opinion that suicide is carried out 99% of the time because of attention issues. I've never attempted suicide so I'm sure there is a great deal I'm unaware of.
Of course it's sad, horrible, and all of those bad things, but when looking at the big picture, it's hard for me to justify feeling bad for someone that kills themselves. (It was hard for me to admit/type that out, however) I think APC sums my view up perfectly in the last lines of "The Outsider."
Disconnect and self destruct, one bullet at a time
What's your hurry, everyone will have his day to die
If you choose to pull the trigger, should your drama prove sincere,
Do it somewhere far away from here
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Both of you are wrong. Its a misconception that suicide is an act borne out of a need for attention. Think about it. A person's need for attention is only gratified if they can recognize the attention. When you're dead, you don't recognize anything.
Suicide is the result of depression... a deep, dark depression, where a person perceives no hope (whether it exists or not, they can't see it). In fact, I have a friend that is suicidal, but I never found that out from her... never even had an inkling that she was even suicidal until I found out she was in a psych ward. She was funny, personable, good company, seemed well balanced. She seemed normal, I never picked up on anything weird about her, and I have a very finely tuned people-meter.
She just hid her depression well. Looking back now, there were signs (like she would drop out of the universe for weeks at a time), no emails, no phone calls... but I just thought she was busy. That doesn't sound like a person that wants attention, that sounds like a person that doesn't want to0 be noticed.
Correction Mr. President, I DID build this, and please give Lurker a hug, we wouldn't want to damage his self-esteem.
The threat and the "suicide attempt" always annoy the shit out of me to be totally honest. Is it a scary thought ? Oh most defiantly, however anyone who WANTS to kill themselves, will. There's no such thing as a failed suicide attempt, foiled suicide perhaps, but an attempt is just that a try to kill ones self and as I said anyone who WANTS to die won't try, they'll succeed.
It's a selfish, heartless, thoughtless and cowardly act. I have certainly had the thought of "what if i just didn't wake up tomorrow" but thats as far as any thought I've had has ever gone. I have known people who "attempted suicide" and they were starving attention whores who then recounted their horror stories of when they tried to kill themselves. This however also works with the woman Embar knows. The people I know were all drama whores to begin with, so the act itself was just a base for more attention, they didn't have real serious problems, they were just wanting people to pay attention to them in any way possible. Even toddlers know that negative attention is better then no attention.
Even worse is someone who commits suicide as an act of cowardice, even more so then the general act itself is. Say these people who murder others then commit suicide themselves. The fact someone innocent who was unwilling to die was taken with no real reason other then someone elses sickness, or depression is terrible enough but to add the death of the killer by self infliction to the pile is just horrific. Take Casey Anthony for example, we currently assume she killed her toddler, which is sad and sick enough in it's own right, but there's a possibility we can still get answers to the most basic question of WHY. Had she killed herself as well then it becomes more of a tragedy as people grieve for the loss of someone when in reality she was still a cold blooded killer.
Embars friend either asked for help, or it was thrust upon her, but hopefully she will receive the help she needs in order to continue on with her life. I can't personally perceive any situation that would truly make me want to die, unless it was the loss of the lives of all my children, however thats just getting deeper into things then necessary within 5 posts of the original post.
Why does there have to be a single personality profile of someone who commits suicide?
I think there's several profiles of someone who would do that; the mentally ill, the terminally ill and yes the coward. And think of the drama queens you know in RL. Suicide is the ultimate act of drama. So I don't think there's on label you can attach to everyone. Just like every other action, humans have complex reasons.
My philosophy is that life is short enough as it is. There's no reason to hasten our demise, as that will happen soon enough no matter how we live or what we do. Might as well enjoy the ride...
The people I know were all drama whores to begin with, so the act itself was just a base for more attention, they didn't have real serious problems, they were just wanting people to pay attention to them in any way possible. Even toddlers know that negative attention is better then no attention.
Then I wouldn't throw it into the category and insult the people like Embar's friend who weren't doing it for attention. I would never call it selfish. It's a sickness.
Cowardly suicide because you fear the consequences of a crime is different, and that I would call selfish.
I've always taken the "selfish" label as a way people handle their grief. Some find comfort in that you can't always control natural death. Some find comfort in their anger and blame when someone takes a life. In this case, their comfort is anger towards the sick person.
I definitely don't think that all cases are because of getting attention. One of my close friends, his mother committed suicide. She was clinically depressed for years, just wallowing in life, never happy. Then a week before she took her own life, she was suddenly happy, elated, acting like a new woman. Turns out, she had finally "committed" to doing it, had planned it out, and felt so relieved by her decision. Everyone said, "whoah! Turn around! Great!" and then bam. She was gone. In her letter, she wrote that she hadn't felt happy in years until she started making concrete plans to kill herself, that the idea of her pain ending brought her so much joy.
I know this isn't true for everyone. She did not want attention. She wanted relief.
But, I think there are people who do it for attention. However, I also think to tell someone who is threatening it to "just go ahead and do it, get some balls," is about the shittiest thing you could do. If they are that depressed that they are going to do it, they need help. If they are just trying to get attention. They also need help.
I had one guy threaten suicide on me. I knew he was a drama queen / attention whore. I called the police. He didn't do it again (at least to me.) They kept him for 72 hours observation.
Alluveal wrote:I definitely don't think that all cases are because of getting attention. One of my close friends, his mother committed suicide. She was clinically depressed for years, just wallowing in life, never happy. Then a week before she took her own life, she was suddenly happy, elated, acting like a new woman. Turns out, she had finally "committed" to doing it, had planned it out, and felt so relieved by her decision. Everyone said, "whoah! Turn around! Great!" and then bam. She was gone. In her letter, she wrote that she hadn't felt happy in years until she started making concrete plans to kill herself, that the idea of her pain ending brought her so much joy.
This is a common situation among depressed persons who are contemplating suicide. Health care workers are trained to look for sudden elevations in mood with depressed patients. It is also a problem related to anti-depression medication. A person in a deep depression is usually lethargic and doesn't have the energy to carry out a suicide plan even if she want to. Anti-depression medications take several weeks to reach therapeutic levels. In sub-therapeutic levels antidepressants provide patients suffering from depression with increased energy, but no elevation in mood. So, you now have a depressed person who is still despondent, but has the physical energy to carry out a suicide plan. If the person is being treated in an inpatient facility, this is usually about the time the insurance money runs out and the patient gets discharged.
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A person in a deep depression is usually lethargic and doesn't have the energy to carry out a suicide plan even if she want to.
And then there's the stigma with that. People are called lazy or attention seeking when they don't have the energy to find help. Their hands need to be held and you need to push and push until they're at a point where they can do it themselves which could take weeks or more. It takes a lot of commitment and care to help someone deeply depressed.
In sub-therapeutic levels antidepressants provide patients suffering from depression with increased energy, but no elevation in mood. So, you now have a depressed person who is still despondent, but has the physical energy to carry out a suicide plan.
Thanks for posting that. I know some medications increase the risk of suicide, but I never understood why they did.
Embar Angylwrath wrote:Both of you are wrong. Its a misconception that suicide is an act borne out of a need for attention. Think about it. A person's need for attention is only gratified if they can recognize the attention. When you're dead, you don't recognize anything.
Yeah, ok, fair enough. I'm actually very familiar with suicidal behavior. One of my best friends is clinically depressed and frequently suicidal (not as much these days thankfully). Occasionally I get a call asking me to stay with them during the day (just to be around) because they don't want to be left alone for fear of what they'll do to themselves.
I was probably a little quick to characterize it as "attention" when you point it out. A lot of suicide is attention (despite the fact that it's ultimately self-defeating). It's always selfish - how could it be anything else but selfish? It's often a cry for help because the person can't figure out how to help themselves.
Freecare Spiritwise wrote:Why does there have to be a single personality profile of someone who commits suicide?
I think there's several profiles of someone who would do that; the mentally ill, the terminally ill and yes the coward. And think of the drama queens you know in RL. Suicide is the ultimate act of drama. So I don't think there's on label you can attach to everyone. Just like every other action, humans have complex reasons.
My philosophy is that life is short enough as it is. There's no reason to hasten our demise, as that will happen soon enough no matter how we live or what we do. Might as well enjoy the ride...
But if everyone dies anyway, and the ride is a completely miserable waste of time where you sit in your room all hours of the night because you're so depressed you can't sleep and you're just contemplating why you even exist, why prolong it? It's even worse when you try to hang yourself out in the woods, the rope breaks, and you just end up lying there in your own defeat. Unless you've tried it yourself for a damned good reason it's kinda hard to judge people. Sometimes a failed suicide attempt is the jumpstart someone needs to get their life back on track and find out what makes them happy. Sometimes you just try it again the right way. Sometimes you fail 4 times because you're an idiot and can't even kill yourself properly and it's no wonder why you've spent the past few years doing nothing but sitting in your bedroom alone except on rare occasions. Speaking from personal experience, there are occasions that nothing ever goes right for someone, and everything they think is going to be a good thing ends up biting them in the ass and makes them feel worse than they ever have and they just want out. I've been in and out of hospitals and police stations since I was in high school because of depression and other mental issues. I've had an engagement broken off, had a kid die, my best friend was murdered, quite a few people I went to high school with OD'd, and each time something bad happened I just wanted it all to stop. Eventually I realized there was a reason why I couldn't kill myself, why every time I tried something got in the way. Either I'm just that fucking stupid that I somehow keep fucking up or getting found, and believe me, I've tried doing it for real so no one would be able to stop me, it's almost 20 minutes from my house to the police station and they somehow got here in under 5 minutes once with an ambulance from a hospital that's 45 minutes away, or someone is playing a terrible, horrible joke on me. Sometimes there just is no silver lining. A lot of musicians who have commited suicide did it because they just couldn't deal with the lifestyle that it brought. Partys and chicks are great until you spend a few days just thinking to yourself 'Do they really like me, or are they just doing all this because I'm in a band?'
I'd like to see things from your point of view but I can't get my head that far up my ass.
The question is: is it better to be alive or dead?
Is it better to put up with all the crap that luck tosses at you, or to fight all that shit by simply putting an end to it all? Dying's only sleeping after all. A sleep that stops all the junk that life gives us - that's probably something to wish for.
Dying... sleeping... dreaming even? Shit! In the sleep of death, who can tell what kind of dreams might come, once we put life behind us. It's scary shit - scary enough that it makes us stretch out life for so long.
I mean, who'd deal with all life's shit: the abuse of the boss, the insults of the arrogant ass next door, that sweet-ass babe that won't even look at me, the busted-ass law, the corrupt politicians and the crap that "good" people have to take from bad when you could simply take out your .38 and blow it all away? Who'd honestly choose to bust their ass through an exhausting life unless they were afraid of something horrible after death, where no one comes back, which we can only think about without getting any answers and which makes us stick to the fucked up shit we know rather than go off after the shit we don't? Fear of death makes us all nutless - we lose our balls just by thinking about it. Things that should be done right away get postponed and put aside and nothing gets done at all.
A child may threaten to hold their breath until they die. That is a cry for attention. Or in a different way of saying it, an attempt at manipulation, An adult may threaten suicide in an attempt to manipulate others. But as was said earlier, You have to be alive to receive the attention. Or as i would say, an attempt to manipulate someone. "give me what I want or I will make you feel bad"
I think true suicide is an escape. You quit your job because you can't take it anymore. You are escaping your job. You get a divorce because you Have grown to hate your spouse. You are escaping your spouse. You kill yourself because you can't take "the heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks That flesh is heir to" It's an escape from all of it.
As to a failed suicide attempt. Some times people make mistakes. They think a handful of sleeping pills and a bottle of vodka will kill them, but the vodka makes them so drunk they throw up the pills. Sometimes people put a gun to the side of their heads and don't realize they are not aiming straight. They blow out the back corner of their brain and live out the rest of their miserable lives in a managed care facility with profound brain damage and a staff that knows the are a suicide risk.
"A few months ago, I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and best intentions still tell me that's true, but the facts and evidence tell me it is not." - Ronald Reagan 1987
Ddrak wrote:The question is: is it better to be alive or dead?
I've often thought about stuff like this when I get stressed out. "I have to do this giant project to pass a class, yet if I were dead (or when I'm dead), the project is completely insignificant. Maybe I shouldn't stress out so much..." I hardly think that thought is suicidal, but rather an acknowledgment that I will die some day - and I need to be alright with that fact.
Some things that people kill themselves over seem very trivial to me. Someone said I'm ugly on myspace!My wife divorced me and I lost my job, now I have nothing to live for! Yet somehow, despite your entire life being ruined, we are still just a tiny ball of elements floating in space. GET OVER IT FFS!
Alluveal wrote:If they are that depressed that they are going to do it, they need help. If they are just trying to get attention. They also need help.
Maybe the help they need, is only had through taking their own life? Maybe suicide sometimes is a viable option? Perhaps some people know what's best for them, and suicide can be that answer - why are we assuming that suicide is never the right thing to do?
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I believe everyone's entitled to give a pistol a blowjob.
Just don't do it in my apartment - I want my freakin' cleaning deposit.
I think if more people off'd themselves, maybe I'd have a shorter line @ the bank, or at the grocery store... or even better, DISNEYLAND!!! WOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
My views might be a little skewed. We killed my great aunt, who was on a ventilator. <3 Oregon Assisted Suicide Act. That might be a little different, though. I think people who whine and make threats that they're gonna do it, or that they want to die - should be dangled over the edge of a cliff by their ankle. They'll probably think things through better, given a REAL life-or-death situation.
Didn't your mama ever tell you not to tango with a carrot?
Turaylon, shit man, sorry to hear of your losses. I didn't mean to come across as judgemental, but I do stand by what I said. Like the cop who committed suicide when dateline NBC exposed him as a child predator rather than own up to what he had done. That's cowardice. Maybe I haven't seen or felt as much pain as you have, but I've seen my share. Too many people have for that matter.
To answer your question of why we should prolong life when it's full of so much pain:
1. There's good things you can still do. Things of meaning and value you can still accomplish. The possibilities are endless. It's too easy to just give up. That's my litmus test for life; if something is easy then it's probably the wrong thing.
and
2. I believe there's some greater meaning and purpose to all of this. If I didn't, to be honest I don't know how I could keep chugging along.
I've also experienced emotional blackmail with suicide. If that person doesn't get this, or I don't do this, they will commit suicide and it will be all my fault. It's a dark road to give into that. If I push someone off a bridge I'm a murder. If that person jumps it's free will. I'll take it like a man for shit I did do, but not for someone else's choices.
And /agree with Garrdor. Let each person decide for themselves (if they can) and let each person be individually accountable for those choices. My wife just pulled the plug on her father a few months ago. That's a hard choice to make but it's one I would've made in her shoes, and one she'll make for me if it ever comes to it.
Life is short. You do your best and then it ends. The old western cliche: How a man dies isn't as important as how he lives.
Freecare Spiritwise wrote:To answer your question of why we should prolong life when it's full of so much pain:
1. There's good things you can still do. Things of meaning and value you can still accomplish. The possibilities are endless. It's too easy to just give up. That's my litmus test for life; if something is easy then it's probably the wrong thing.
and
2. I believe there's some greater meaning and purpose to all of this. If I didn't, to be honest I don't know how I could keep chugging along.
I liked this and wanted to add that we usually have the power to change our life and our perspective of how we view our situations. If you are unhappy with your neighbors, move. If you are tired of chicks not giving you the time of day, start working out. Instead of giving up on your life because it sucks, get off your ass and make a life for yourself that you feel is worth living.
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One of my moms aunts killed herself from depression. Never really gave any outward signs......just one day wrapped herself up in a sheet and blankets and shot herself in the stomach with a pistol.
She wrapped herself up so she wouldn't bleed on the floor. That there just goes to show how wierd people think when they are depressed.
