Sex Slaves

[Select]

"After the beatings and shocks, Sina said she would be locked naked in a wooden coffin full of biting ants. The coffin was dark, suffocating and so tight that she could not move her hands up to her face to brush off the ants. Her tears washed the ants out of her eyes."
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/01/opini ... ef=opinion
This one hurt to read. With all that's done in the name of human rights, I find it interesting that outside governments don't go so far to change these situations.

[Ddrak]

What would you suggest an outside government do?

Dd

[Garrdor]

We had a patient once here @ Prov who had a laptop, morning coffee, glasses on, etc. - sitting up in his bed, goin nuts on the keyboard. He was also on his cellphone. It was like he was working out of his hospital room. Well, it turns out - he was.

He was a fat bald guy in his early 60s. I took him down for some imaging, and he was showing me his new 'Iphone" and when he was flipping through the pictures, there were tons with him and these youngish looking asian girls. He was like "ALL of them are cute".

I had him flagged as one of those rich pedobears that fly out to developing country for the sex slaves.

It turns out... he, um... wasnt?

He explained that he owns a "massage parlor" in China. He showed me a picture of this very attactive jailbait asian girl.


"This is my girlfriend over there. I have a wife back here at home, but when I go to work back east - she's the one I go home to"

Scumbag.

[Harlowe]

I'm not sure what an outside government could do about situations like that.

[Select]

What outside governments do when they find a reason to change the human rights of an area.

[Embar Angylwrath]

What outside governments do when they find a reason to change the human rights of an area.

The same reason was given for Iraq.

[Ddrak]

What outside governments do when they find a reason to change the human rights of an area.

It's already illegal, so the Cambodian government isn't oppressing these people. It's just that they don't have the policing ability to crack down on it. An outside government can do no more about it than the French government can do about kids in your college smoking dope.

Options for outside governments:

- Sanctions. Doesn't work because you weaken the government which is already too weak to enforce the rules.
- Invasion. Right, sure. No one is going to send in the army because of this. It's just not worth it.
- Do nothing and try to build up a stable government through trade. Already doing it.

Dd

[Select]

Why does it come down to invasion? No one said that. I was thinking pressure. I don't have the answers. There are better people out there with the answers. If I had them, I would have said them, and I would be doing what I could to make them happen. I feel that more could be done and it's never brought up enough when it should be, because it really is slavery and it's sickening to see it exist in today's world, but thanks for the conclusion jumps. It also isn't just Cambodia, China's had its happy share if I remember correctly. Other countries too.

[Ddrak]

Uh, why so combative? Invasion is about the only option on the table when the existing government can't deal with the problem. You mention pressure, but it's not like the Cambodian government is turning a blind eye - it's the fact they have bigger problems to deal with and not enough resources to do anything about it. All "pressure" can do is weaken the government, which makes the sex slave industry thrive even more.

"I don't have the answers, better people have them" is a bullshit cop-out. If "better people" had them do you think it would still exist? There are no "better people". There's just people and if you don't have a good idea then chances are no one else does either. I'm not trying to shut you up here, I'm trying to get you out of the mentality that "someone else will fix it if I just point it out". If you care, do something constructive and look for reasonable solutions.

There's many sickening things in the world today, and this doesn't actually rank that highly compared to some of the stuff I've heard about in the poorer parts of SE Asia and Africa. When tourists bring into the nation more money than an entire village sees in a lifetime then the worst comes out in people.

Dd

[Select]

but it's not like the Cambodian government is turning a blind eye

That I disagree with and I'm going to pull this away from just Cambodia because it's bigger than that. In some countries, they do turn a blind eye. Oh, the heads might make policies condemning it, but good luck trying to get certain police forces to take it seriously or do proper investigations. It's not just a lack of money, it's corruption and sometimes involvement.

"I don't have the answers, better people have them" is a bullshit cop-out. If "better people" had them do you think it would still exist?

You're also confusing "answer" with "solution". I don't think anyone knows a "solution" that won't take generations, possibly more. "Answers" can reduce it, improve lives and policies. "Answers" are an important relief for the generations who will never see the "solution".

I'm trying to get you out of the mentality that "someone else will fix it if I just point it out"

That isn't my mentality. I don't understand the structure well enough to come up with things to try, nor do I have any money for funding. There are more intelligent people who better understand the area and the psychology. If I read what they propose (I am looking) and I think it's a chance, I'll support them. I won't just sit back and think it's taken care of.

There's many sickening things in the world today, and this doesn't actually rank that highly compared to some of the stuff I've heard about in the poorer parts of SE Asia and Africa. When tourists bring into the nation more money than an entire village sees in a lifetime then the worst comes out in people.

The first half of that: is it worth it to have a pissing contest about human rights?

[Ddrak]

Oh, the heads might make policies condemning it, but good luck trying to get certain police forces to take it seriously or do proper investigations. It's not just a lack of money, it's corruption and sometimes involvement.

You're not seeing the real problem. It's not the one you think it is. Sex slaves are not the actual problem - they're just a symptom, like drug cartels, endemic corruption and any other large scale criminal behavior. The real problem is one of simple economics - when you can make a bunch more money from illegal stuff, to the point that you're better funded than the government, then it's obvious that the illegal stuff is going to flourish. An external government can do NOTHING about this in the short term because the solution is to improve the nation's economic status to the point where it's no longer viable to engage in criminal activity. Did you ever stop to ask "why is this happening at a fundamental level"?

As for trying to nitpick between some weird definition of "answer" and "solution" - they're synonyms. Short term or long term, there's nothing an external government can do to fix the problem that doesn't involve direct intervention in another nation's internal politics and economy.

Is it worth nitpicking about the scales of human rights? Hell yes! When you don't have the ability to solve every problem in the world then you *have* to prioritize, otherwise you find yourself trying to fix issues that affects a thousands of people while ignoring issues that affect millions.

Dd

[Select]

Did you ever stop to ask "why is this happening at a fundamental level"?

That's in any article on it. It's not just because "people like sex" and I am insulted you'd think I couldn't see the root.

In the short term because the solution is to improve the nation's economic status to the point where it's no longer viable to engage in criminal activity

That's the long term. But people don't sit around watching daily trades and counting down the decades (or more) until the economy booms. Raids and investigations happen. There's no reason that both can't be happening at the same time. The raids and investigations won't end all of it, but they'll prevent plenty of people from hurting and possibly recover kidnapped children. Awareness will help the western men who travel there to understand that she might not be willing at all, but kidnapped and drugged and forced. I don't see this is as something external governments shouldn't worry about since slaves are kidnapped from other countries, from tourists, and transported around to countries where tourists from countries like yours and mine participate. It's not confined.

Is it worth nitpicking about the scales of human rights? Hell yes! When you don't have the ability to solve every problem in the world then you *have* to prioritize, otherwise you find yourself trying to fix issues that affects a thousands of people while ignoring issues that affect millions.

That wording is different. Dd, you came off that it isn't a big deal at all and it will just go away eventually with trade, and in the meantime we wait for it to happen. Do you think any raids and investigations are a waste of time since it can't begin to stop once the economy booms? Do you think they should be spending their resources on other things? It's not just the poorest of the poor. If we just "wait" for Cambodia, which is lagging far behind other countries where it happens, it'll be too long. Then you have a harder time changing the mindset. I think slavery should be a high priority when it comes to human rights. There are few I'd rank higher. Genocide, for one, is more urgent.

[Ddrak]

Raids and investigations happen. There's no reason that both can't be happening at the same time.

You're not reading what I'm writing, are you?

• When there's far more money (and I mean orders of magnitude) to be made in the sex trade than in the government or police business then the only people that are going to be "raiding and investigating" are those who have a vested personal interest that money won't shut down. Those people are also the ones who won't rise in power in the organizations, so you're only going to get isolated pockets of success that are quickly shut down or ignored. Playing "whack-a-mole" isn't an "answer". It doesn't even help.
• Foreign governments cannot influence the raids and investigations. It just doesn't work and in the vast majority of cases where it's tried you end up weakening the government. This type of thing can only come from internal reform, which can only come from the people of a nation and the slow improving of the economy.
• Wanting to fix things right-the-hell-now doesn't work. If you don't aim long term then you never get anywhere. Sadly this is becoming more and more common, like a global ADHD epidemic.

Awareness will help the western men who travel there to understand that she might not be willing at all, but kidnapped and drugged and forced.

lol, how cutely naive.

I don't see this is as something external governments shouldn't worry about since slaves are kidnapped from other countries, from tourists, and transported around to countries where tourists from countries like yours and mine participate.

Again, what are they going to do? Lodge a diplomatic protest? Some vague "pressure" that can't be defined and can't be effective? Sure, they can target the kidnappers in their own countries but once their across the borders you're at the mercy of whatever that country is capable of.

Dd, you came off that it isn't a big deal at all and it will just go away eventually with trade, and in the meantime we wait for it to happen.

The world is staring down a global food crisis in the next 50 years that may cause billions of deaths and the downfall of civilization and you're asking me to say a few thousand sex slaves is a "big deal"? 75% of Africans have AIDS and still don't use protection and a few thousand sex slaves is supposed to be a "big deal"? No, it's not a big deal in perspective. Sure, it's a human tragedy but I just don't see what can be done, so I don't stress about it. It's an internal problem for Cambodia (or wherever).

Do you think any raids and investigations are a waste of time since it can't begin to stop once the economy booms?

Of course they aren't, but they are something that only Cambodia can do and not Australia or the US (unless you're suggesting an invasion).

Do you think they should be spending their resources on other things?

Probably. The root cause is economic, so that's where the resources are best spent. I don't believe in sacrificing long term goals for short term gain. The end doesn't justify the means, but there's no point throwing money at something that may or may not be effective.

If we just "wait" for Cambodia, which is lagging far behind other countries where it happens, it'll be too long. Then you have a harder time changing the mindset.

What mindset? You really think the locals like this sort of thing? Once they can get past "live through this week" then they'll move onto caring about other people, but there's no "mindset" beyond that.

Dd

[Select]

It doesn't even help.

I think it does.

lol, how cutely naive.

You're going back to insults and to that, fuck you, I thought better of you in debates. Naive? I know most tourists who go and pay don't give a shit. They want their fix. Garrdor's hospital buddy, if he's real, for example. To change anyone's perspective is important. To raise someone knowing the extent and consequences of this can create sympathy.

Again, what are they going to do? Lodge a diplomatic protest? Some vague "pressure" that can't be defined and can't be effective? Sure, they can target the kidnappers in their own countries but once their across the borders you're at the mercy of whatever that country is capable of.

Raids can happen in countries like yours and mine. Cambodia isn't a pen. Slaves are everywhere and so are kidnappers. Improving and having countries work together can help.

75% of Africans have AIDS and still don't use protection and a few thousand sex slaves is supposed to be a "big deal"?

There are sex slaves in Africa. A slave with HIV seeing a handful of clients a day can be more dangerous in regards to spreading it than an individual sleeping around town. It comes down to protection and sex education, but you can't ignore the contribution.

What mindset? You really think the locals like this sort of thing? Once they can get past "live through this week" then they'll move onto caring about other people, but there's no "mindset" beyond that.

Look how sex crimes are handled in places where it isn't "live through this week", where rape or abuse isn't seen it as important or "that" bad. The effort isn't put it in to bring it to justice. That is a mindset.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Select,

I know you want to paint this as a human rights issue, but its not. Its an economic issue which has an affect on human rights. That's a very important distinction you have to understand. NPR had a great interview about this a couple of days ago. Essentially, they interviewed a guy who wrote a book about this and is actively trying to stop the practice of trade in human flesh. Even he said the way to stop this was through economics, not intervention. The reason this guy said the sex trade is so lucrative and so hard to stomp out, is that the profit margins are huge. All you have to do is feed a human and house the human (less than a couple dollars per day), and a person could turn hundreds of dollars per day on that human by renting him/her out every night.

And I know this sounds callous, but once that human can't perform anymore, the people that do this for a living just go get another human. In case you haven't noticed, there are plenty of them around. I'm not trying to be flip or anyhting, but the world won't miss a few thousand people. Remember the big tsunami that happened in 2004? Over a quarter million deaths. Know how long that took the world to replace?

Just about a day.

Yep... we add about 200,000 people per day to the planet. The plight of a single human is wrenching, its visceral, it moves people because we can identify with it... but its absolutely meaningless on the grand scale of things.

Now, that doesn't mean I embrace the idea of human slavery... I abhor it. But I also know there are bigger issues that affect larger numbers of the human population, like hunger and basics like availability of potable water (google how many people die from bad water, and come back here with some perspective)

Yes, sex slaves are bad. But there is much, much worse out there. Open your eyes and adjust your perspective.

[Select]

In case you haven't noticed, there are plenty of them around. I'm not trying to be flip or anyhting, but the world won't miss a few thousand people. Remember the big tsunami that happened in 2004? Over a quarter million deaths. Know how long that took the world to replace?

But I also know there are bigger issues that affect larger numbers of the human population, like hunger and basics like availability of potable water (google how many people die from bad water, and come back here with some perspective)

Yes, sex slaves are bad. But there is much, much worse out there. Open your eyes and adjust your perspective.

"Worse" for you is based on how many people it affects? Shy of cutting the world population in half, it doesn't bother me. Perhaps I care more about slavery than I care about poisoned water? Perhaps I care more about how people treat each other than I care about diseases that help control the growing population this planet can't handle? My perspective isn't liked, but I'd rather live in a world of 5 billion with slightly less problems than 7 billion with slightly more. That's still a lot of people with many similar personalities and ways of thinking. It's a greater loss to me when we treat each other badly and become stagnant.

[Freecare Spiritwise]

Yes, sex slaves are bad. But there is much, much worse out there. Open your eyes and adjust your perspective.

Wow. Just wow.

[Ddrak]

It doesn't even help.

I think it does.

Think whatever helps you sleep at night. Doesn't bother me, or the truth for that matter.

lol, how cutely naive.

You're going back to insults and to that, fuck you, I thought better of you in debates. Naive? I know most tourists who go and pay don't give a shit. They want their fix. Garrdor's hospital buddy, if he's real, for example. To change anyone's perspective is important. To raise someone knowing the extent and consequences of this can create sympathy.

Anyone going to Cambodia to pay for sex really isn't thinking about the plight of the women they shag. Hell, they're not even thinking about themselves in a critical manner given the insanely high chances of catching an STD and the moderate chances of serving prison time when they get back to the US (it's illegal remember to go overseas for the purpose of child sex, and being a registered sex offender ends your free life forever). To suggest that some campaign pointing out that these women are treated badly is going to deter the Johns is really naive and quite frankly deserves derision for the thought. If anything it might give a few ideas of "hey - hot asian chicks for a couple of bucks!" which compounds the problems.

Raids can happen in countries like yours and mine. Cambodia isn't a pen. Slaves are everywhere and so are kidnappers. Improving and having countries work together can help.

What are they gonna raid in the US or Australia? Seriously - I don't get what you're trying to do here. The net on sex offenders and child kidnappers is insanely tight in first world countries. To suggest "more should be done inside countries like the US and Australia because there's child sex slaves in Cambodia" is just strange.

There are sex slaves in Africa. A slave with HIV seeing a handful of clients a day can be more dangerous in regards to spreading it than an individual sleeping around town. It comes down to protection and sex education, but you can't ignore the contribution.

Nah, the real problem in Africa isn't the sex slaves. It's the fact that AIDS is still seen as a divine punishment in most cases and people "won't get it if they're good people". Toss in the extreme anti-condom mentality that exists over there. Add to that the amount of rape that goes on in the tribal villages and the mentality of many with AIDS that they're gonna take out as many others as possible, the contribution of sex slaves is really quite minimal.

You're grasping for relevance here.

What mindset? You really think the locals like this sort of thing? Once they can get past "live through this week" then they'll move onto caring about other people, but there's no "mindset" beyond that.

Look how sex crimes are handled in places where it isn't "live through this week", where rape or abuse isn't seen it as important or "that" bad. The effort isn't put it in to bring it to justice. That is a mindset.

You're making it up. Sex crimes are handled very seriously in the first world (ie places that aren't "live through this week"). The mindset is typically that if you get busted for child sex stuff then you get a shiv in the ribs during prison, or you get marked for life as a sex offender. That's the type of thing I'm saying - raise the economic situation and society rids themselves of these sort of criminals.

"Worse" for you is based on how many people it affects? Shy of cutting the world population in half, it doesn't bother me. Perhaps I care more about slavery than I care about poisoned water? Perhaps I care more about how people treat each other than I care about diseases that help control the growing population this planet can't handle? My perspective isn't liked, but I'd rather live in a world of 5 billion with slightly less problems than 7 billion with slightly more. That's still a lot of people with many similar personalities and ways of thinking. It's a greater loss to me when we treat each other badly and become stagnant.

You care more about 1 live sex slave than you do about a thousand people dying of bad water? What... The... Fuck...?

Dd

[Taxious]

Yep... we add about 200,000 people per day to the planet. The plight of a single human is wrenching, its visceral, it moves people because we can identify with it... but its absolutely meaningless on the grand scale of things.

It's interesting to hear this come from you considering your "everyone-is-special-pro-life" statements in other threads.

You care more about 1 live sex slave than you do about a thousand people dying of bad water? What... The... Fuck...?

[Embar Angylwrath]

Yep... we add about 200,000 people per day to the planet. The plight of a single human is wrenching, its visceral, it moves people because we can identify with it... but its absolutely meaningless on the grand scale of things.

It's interesting to hear this come from you considering your "everyone-is-special-pro-life" statements in other threads.

You care more about 1 live sex slave than you do about a thousand people dying of bad water? What... The... Fuck...?

How do you find that interesting?