General Motors

[Partha]

UAW rules out concessions. They get what's coming to them.

fap fap fap goes the Embar...

[Trollbait]

Oh, yes. That definitely gets a point across and contributes to the discussion....

[Partha]

I didn't know Embar was in the discussion, I thought he was just spooging.

4% of our GDP goes away? No biggie, right? 3 million jobs? No problem!

[Embar Angylwrath]

UAW rules out concessions. They get what's coming to them.

fap fap fap goes the Embar...

Blame the UAW, not the messenger.

[Partha]

Yes, how dare workers organize for better wages and conditions. They should live like our ancestors, in tin shacks and eat roots!

[Embar Angylwrath]

Yes, how dare workers organize for better wages and conditions. They should live like our ancestors, in tin shacks and eat roots!

The 1920s are gone, get over it already. Workers here in the US seem to do ok without the intrusion of unions. More specifically, workers at Toyota, Honda and Nissan seem to be doing ok. There's no reason to think workers in the UAW would fare any worse.

[Lurker]

The UAW contract played a small part in making the Big 3 less competitive and yet you want to give them 100% of the blame. This is why modern conservatives suck so badly at governing and solving problems. The UAW is not to blame for decades of mismanagement by the Big 3. Stop using the crisis as an excuse to push your anti-union ideology.

[Embar Angylwrath]

The UAW contract played a small part in making the Big 3 less competitive and yet you want to give them 100% of the blame. This is why modern conservatives suck so badly at governing and solving problems. The UAW is not to blame for decades of mismanagement by the Big 3. Stop using the crisis as an excuse to push your anti-union ideology.

Nowhere in this thread have I solely blamed the UAW for the state of affairs of the Big 3. Management played a large part as well. However, painting the UAW as just a "small part" is simply not honest or correct.

If the UAW wage/benefit structure is almost double what the other car makers have, then even if the Big 3 were run as efficiently and managed as well as the foreign car makers, they still wouldn't be competitive. The cost pressure from those union contracts is the lead weight around the neck of Big 3. There's no way around that, the numbers don't lie.

[Embar Angylwrath]

As for GM, let them declare Chapter 11 like any other failed company. They can still operate while restructuring.

Just in case you forgot where you started in this argument, Lurker.

[Klast Brell]

If the UAW wage/benefit structure is almost double what the other car makers have, then even if the Big 3 were run as efficiently and managed as well as the foreign car makers, they still wouldn't be competitive. The cost pressure from those union contracts is the lead weight around the neck of Big 3. There's no way around that, the numbers don't lie.

What numbers? This will be the third time I have posted asking for real numbers. Please post the real wage benefit numbers for "other car makers" so we can all see how they are double. Or admit that you are parroting talking points fed to you by sources who have reason to misdirect and obfuscate

[Lurker]

As for GM, let them declare Chapter 11 like any other failed company. They can still operate while restructuring.

Just in case you forgot where you started in this argument, Lurker.

I haven't changed that position. I think the companies need to restructure and the union contracts need to be renegotiated. Since none of the companies could get the necessary loans for a true Chapter 11, the government will need to be involved and will need to set the rules and provide the money.

Nowhere in this thread have I solely blamed the UAW for the state of affairs of the Big 3.

You are fixated on the UAW. I think that's evident for anyone reading this thread.

[Embar Angylwrath]

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnf ... exclusives

Currently, UAW workers get $70 an hour in wages and benefits, about $25 to $30 an hour more than Toyota and Honda workers.

And I know you'll scoff at this, but it matches Business Weeks conclusions, but here it is anyway.

[Embar Angylwrath]

As for GM, let them declare Chapter 11 like any other failed company. They can still operate while restructuring.

Just in case you forgot where you started in this argument, Lurker.

I haven't changed that position. I think the companies need to restructure and the union contracts need to be renegotiated. Since none of the companies could get the necessary loans for a true Chapter 11, the government will need to be involved and will need to set the rules and provide the money.

Nowhere in this thread have I solely blamed the UAW for the state of affairs of the Big 3.

You are fixated on the UAW. I think that's evident for anyone reading this thread.

Actually, you and Partha are fixated with preserving the UAW, when both of you acknowledge they are part of the problem. Hell, even Partha said part of the solution is to hire workers at non-UAW wages and benefits. I assume he knows that means they'll have to get rid of UAW workers in order to make room for non-UAW workers. So he's advocating the same thng as me.. get rid of the UAW part of the problem by eliminating the effect of UAW contracts on the cost structure of the Big 3.

[Lurker]

I'd rather get rid of the UAW part of the problem by renegotiating the contract. It should be possible to protect the workers and remove unnecessary drag on the company. But again, the UAW is not responsible for the gross mismanagement of the companies that has gone on for decades. I think that's played a much larger role in landing them where they are now.

[Ddrak]

4% of our GDP goes away? No biggie, right? 3 million jobs? No problem!

That's a fallacy. Any liquidation would result in another car manufacturer picking up the bulk of those.

There's two problems here - the UAW which should be dismantled in favor of separate unions for each workplace, and the company based pension funds which are a noose around the neck of any company which used to provide these.

Dd

[Embar Angylwrath]

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2008/11/ ... 17126.html

Its actually an AP report posted on Forbes.. here's some tidbits...

But GM, which negotiated the four-year deal that serves as a template for UAW deals with Chrysler and Ford, says its total hourly labor costs dropped 6 percent this year from pre-contract levels, from $73.26 in 2006 to around $69 per hour.

Toyota spokesman Mike Goss said the company's total labor costs at its older U.S. plants are around $48, with about $30 per hour in wages.

There's also the "jobs bank," a feature of the UAW contract that drew fire from senators, in which workers get 95 percent of their base pay and all of their benefits if they are laid off or their plant is closed.

Critics note that when Detroit automakers try to downsize, they either have to pay workers to stay in the jobs bank or give them buyout or early retirement offers. Some of the offers have been as high as $140,000.

@ Lurker... sure renegotiate the contract. Hey, I'm for that too, as long as the renegotiation pulls labor costs in line with similar non-union work done in the industry. And I agree that the management should be replaced, and I never said the UAW was responsible for the mismanagement of the companies. What I'm arguing is that even if the companies WERE well run, the unions would still place the Big 3 at a competitive disadvantage. Do you disagree with that?

And bankruptcy (either the normal way or a "pre-packaged" bankruptcy) is the proper venue for this. The contracts will have to be renegotiated at that point, the UAW won't have a choice. Given the fact that the UAW is refusing compromise, do you agree that forcing the compromise through bankruptcy is the way to go?

[Embar Angylwrath]

I'll also remind Partha and Lurker that extending a loan to GM or Chysler is really extending a loan to Cerebus, an 80% equity holder in Chysler, and a 51% equity holder in GMAC. Cerebus has billions in assets. And I'm betting they will pony up with DIP financing and get new management in there, because if they don't, they'll be left with a couple of shells.

[Lurker]

Do you disagree with that?

We're in agreement.

I don't think Cerberus has enough assets to cover the requested bridge loans, let alone the DIP loans that would be necessary for a restructuring.

[Embar Angylwrath]

You realize then, that a bailout of Chrsyler and GM is really a bailout of a venture capital firm? A VC firm that made its cash in hedge funds? And that by doing so, a bailout makes the taxpayers assume the risk for bad financial and management decisions on the part of Cerberus? With an 80% stake in Chrysler, they control the board. The board hires the management. The management failed, therefore Cerberus failed. Are you willing to give Cerberus a free lunch ticket?

Don't you find it odd that you and Partha are willing to risk taxpayer money to prop up a VC company? My, how the worm has turned.

Actually, that last statement was an assumption on my part. Partha has been pretty adamant that the US should do whatever is needed to protect the Big 3, because if we don't, his perception is that too many people will lose jobs.

Are you of the same mind? Or do you agree that bankruptcy is the proper venue for the restructuring of the one or more of the Big 3?

[Lurker]

My position hasn't changed from what I said last week. I don't support extending loans to the companies with no strings attached. Any money must be tied to drastic restructuring. I think that's going to require a government backed "bankruptcy" because in the current credit climate declaring Chapter 11 protection will lead immediately to Chapter 7 liquidation.