General Motors

[Partha]

Why are you arguing for hiring workers at non-union levels, (a wise argument), and then argue the UAW should be preserved? Seems to me your stance is the UAW wages/benefits are part of the problem, and then you argue we should keep the problem.

Unions are going to have to do some givebacks, ok? Like the pilots do time after time after time for airlines. But you want to destroy them. Thanks, but no thanks, there's a reason we like life now more than we did as workers in the 1900's, K?

[Trollbait]

http://www.aftermarketnews.com/Item/285 ... uggle.aspx

In at least one case last year, workers for a foreign automaker for the first time averaged more in base pay and bonuses than UAW members working for domestic automakers, according to an economist for the Center for Automotive Research and figures supplied to the Free Press by auto companies.

In that instance, Toyota Motor Corp. gave workers at its largest U.S. plant bonuses of $6,000 to $8,000, boosting the average pay at the Georgetown, KY, plant to the equivalent of $30 an hour. That compares with a $27 hourly average for UAW workers, most of whom did not receive profit-sharing checks last year. Toyota would not provide a U.S. average, but said its 7,000-worker Georgetown plant is representative of its U.S. operations.

Honda Motor Co. and Nissan Motor Co. are not far behind Toyota and UAW pay levels. Comparable wages have long been one way foreign companies fight off UAW organizing efforts.

But Toyota workers' pay topping that of UAW members comes as the union faces contract negotiations this year with struggling Detroit companies that will seek billions in concessions, partly because they face higher costs for retiree health care and pensions than their foreign-owned competitors.

So Toyota is in the black. Honda is in the black. The UAW smothered big 3 are floundering. Part of the problem is inch thick union contracts that need to go. That is not even arguable.

[Klast Brell]

Did you read the material you quoted? Toyota pays it's non union workers more than the big 3 pays UAW workers. And you still blame the big 3's problems on the UAW? I would love to see a comparison of the executive compensation at those 2 companies.

But there is a peek at another facet of the problem there. The Big 3 have pension funds to manage. And they fucked that up royally. For years they boosted their earnings by underfunding the pension fund. Then they compounded the problem by trying to play catchup by investing the pension fund money in hedge funds and other "unconventional investments" We all know how well "unconventional investments" have been doing lately.

[Trollbait]

Did you read the material you quoted? Toyota pays it's non union workers more than the big 3 pays UAW workers.

Do not be so dense. Because of ridiculous union rules and benefits a GM worker COSTS more than a Toyota worker. Say both of them make 29.50 per hour but the benefits cost of the GM worker is 30 per hour on top of his base pay while the Toyota worker is 15 an hour on top of his base pay. These numbers are random but it is not even arguable that the cost of benefits to GM is incredibly higher than the cost of benefits to Toyota. Clearly Toyota is treating its workers fairly without a Union so what purpose is the Union serving the GM employees?

Here is an example of extraneous costs:

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2 ... iagra.html

Lifestyle drugs -- chiefly Viagra -- are costing General Motors $17 million dollars a year and the cost is passed along to car, truck and SUV consumers. The blue pill is covered under GM's labor agreement with United Auto Workers, as well as benefit plans for salaried employees.

<snip>

GM recently raised the co-pay for erectile dysfunction drugs to $18 under a new agreement with the UAW and the company has also pared benefits for salaried workers.

The automaker spends almost $5.6 billion each year on health care. While lifestyle drugs are a small fraction of the total medical bill, every health care expense is added into the price of every new vehicle and is a drag on the struggling goliath's earnings.

<snip>

While many government and company health plans have eliminated impotence drugs from coverage plans, GM has more than two retirees for every active worker on its rolls and must negotiate eliminating the drugs from the union health plan with the UAW.

[Partha]

Clearly Toyota is treating its workers fairly without a Union so what purpose is the Union serving the GM employees?

Are you naive enough to believe without a union at other car companies that Toyota would pay it's people that well otherwise? If so, I have a bridge to sell you...

[Trollbait]

So suddenly when the UAW has been renegotiated properly at GM Toyota is going to cut the pay of all it's workers?

Don't be a tard.

The option of organization is always there and that will keep the auto makers in line.

[Lurker]

I think the $60 number you are using for GM employees is an average that includes benefits for retirees. Toyota only has a few hundred retirees in the U.S. so that's not a fair comparison.

Are you actually claiming that the UAW, and not the decades long mismanagement of the companies, bears the bulk of the blame for their collapse?

[Embar Angylwrath]

I think the $60 number you are using for GM employees is an average that includes benefits for retirees. Toyota only has a few hundred retirees in the U.S. so that's not a fair comparison.

Are you actually claiming that the UAW, and not the decades long mismanagement of the companies, bears the bulk of the blame for their collapse?

Does it matter who bears the blame? The fact is, in order to survive, no matter who did what, is that the labor costs for the Big 3 have to be on par with the rest of the industry. If that doesn't happen, they will never be competitive.

Partha mentioned hiring mre workers at non-UAW levels. That's a great idea, except you'd have to fire all the UAW workers in order to hire non-UAW workers. Jobs just don't appear out of thin air, especially with the Big 3 are downsizing their workforce. The better solution is to allow those UAW workers to keep their jobs, and toss the contract, but I'm betting the UAW won't do that.

SO, the answer, once again, is to allow one or more of them to enter bankruptcy, which will automatically toss the contracts. Then the Partha Plan can be implemented.. hiring more workers at non-UAW levels. I'm betting if the company's position during renegotiation was to separate itself from the union, but hire back on anyone at the same pay but with lower benefits, I'm betting that company would get 90% of its workforce back in a month. Sure people want jobs that are swimming in gravy, have low accountability, and good wages/benefits. But when faced with no job at all, they'll take one that ins't so cushy.

Kind of like the rest of us working in the real world have to do.

[Lurker]

Does it matter who bears the blame?

Yes, it does. You can't solve a problem unless you understand the cause.

Partha mentioned hiring mre workers at non-UAW levels. That's a great idea, except you'd have to fire all the UAW workers in order to hire non-UAW workers.

Two-tier systems like that don't work. The Grocers Union recently tried this and it failed miserably. New workers resented the higher paid workers resulting in high turnover and mediocre work.

I'm not in favor of abolishing the union since the union is not to blame for the state of the companies. Sure, renegotiating the union contract needs to happen because every step has to be taken to make the companies profitable, but the union contract is not the main culprit here.

Chapter 11 isn't possible unless the government provides the loans. I'm all for that but only if current management is removed and the companies are drastically restructured from the top down.

[Trollbait]

Are you actually claiming that the UAW, and not the decades long mismanagement of the companies, bears the bulk of the blame for their collapse?

I am claiming both as well as other factors are to blame.

I'm not in favor of abolishing the union since the union is not to blame for the state of the companies.

Fault of the union or not the costs of the union makes the big three uncompetitive. It is one of the things that has to be taken care of if they are to succeed.

I say let them go into bankruptcy. All contracts will be null in that case. So the unions can either take appropriate steps to cut costs now or lose all power anyway.

[Lurker]

I say let them go into bankruptcy.

Chapter 11 isn't an option unless the government provides the loans during the restructure. There's no way the companies would get loans on their own in this climate. Any bankruptcy would immediately lead to liquidation which benefits nobody.

[Trollbait]

Chapter 11 isn't an option unless the government provides the loans during the restructure.

Which is exactly what they should do.

Then ALL contracts will be null and/or subject to renegotiation.

[Harlowe]

Chapter 11 isn't an option unless the government provides the loans during the restructure.

Which is exactly what they should do.

Then ALL contracts will be null and/or subject to renegotiation.

I actually like the sound of that better than any of the other suggestions.

[Lurker]

And I'm all for that if the goal is renegotiation and restructuring of the companies from the top down. Count me out if the goal is to just bust the union and default on retiree pensions and benefits while leaving the same incompetent corporate structure in place.

[Trollbait]

As i stated in an earlier post I would start by firing the top management and appointing an Executive Manager and a Comptroller to oversee the restructuring.

Honestly, I think Romney would be just the man for the job along with Paul Rubin as the Comptroller.

[Klast Brell]

You are comparing GM worker pay plus benefits to Toyota? Then you need to get the data on Toyota worker benefits as well.

I checked through the proxy statement for GM. The company spent $27,936.649.00 in salary, bonuses, stock options, retirement contributions and other benefits on Rick Wagoner in 2007. Toyota on the other hand spent less than 20 million of it's entire executive team. Rick wagoner must be in one hell of a union.

[Embar Angylwrath]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c9e117b6-b416 ... ck_check=1

UAW rules out concessions. They get what's coming to them.

[Embar Angylwrath]

I hope you all caught Levin's press conference today. Sure was funny watching him throw Pelosi under the bus, and pretty much call her out for being a dumbass. Anyway, Levin announced a bi-partisan plan to loan $25 billion to the Big 3. Seems this group of Senators has gone off the reservation, and are telling Pelosi in an indirect way that she better bring the plan to a vote, and screw her if she thinks there aren't enugh votes to pass it.

It should be noted that most of the bi-partisan senators are from the sates like OH, PA, MI....

[Lurker]

The plan to take the 25 billion approved for retooling and just hand it over to the car companies as a bridge loan is awful. I like Pelosi's proposal requiring the car companies to submit a restructuring plan much better and hopefully she sticks to that.

[Harlowe]

The plan to take the 25 billion approved for retooling and just hand it over to the car companies as a bridge loan is awful. I like Pelosi's proposal requiring the car companies to submit a restructuring plan much better and hopefully she sticks to that.

I agree, without a restructuring plan, this is freakin' more free money out the damn window.