Debates

[Ddrak]

Saying "Obama never attacked him" is splitting hairs. The Obama campaign definitely attacked him once he came out and started claiming that Obama didn't answer his question. It's certainly possible that they even attacked him before he said that (I'm not 100% on the timing of all of that), but I'm pretty sure he was making shit up about Obama the instant the TV cameras showed up after the debate.

Fallakin - do you think it was ok of Joe to say that Obama didn't answer his question? That he "tap danced around it better than Fred Astaire"? Yes, you would have to be crazy to think people can't ask politicians questions, but you'd have to be more crazy to think politicians can't fight back when someone goes out of their way to smear them. Joe could easily have gotten up on TV and said "Mr Obama answered my question, and while I thank him for taking a good amount of time to explain his views, I choose to disagree". That would have been what we commonly call "truth". What Joe said is what we call a "lie". The difference is important.

Here's what really happened:

Joe wants to catch some politician out with a "tough" question. Probably a Democrat. He's already admitted that.
Joe successfully asks Obama a question.
Obama does an excellent job answering.
Joe is kinda pissed because he didn't expect a politician to answer his "tough" question. Perhaps he even feels like Obama made a fool out of him (though I don't think he did).
The McCain campaign sees the "spread the wealth around" comment on a tape and latches on to it, thinking "Joe the Plumber" is a great way to connect to the middle class.
Joe watches the debate and feels a hell of a lot better, probably convincing himself in his own mind that he really did beat Obama.
Seventy billion TV crews turn up at Joe's place and Joe tells them the way he now believes things happened. The brain is funny like that.
The Obama campagin sees Joe's lie about Obama and fires back with all the smearing power that only a Presidential campaign can muster - probably making the (incorrect) assumption that he was a GOP plant.
Obama's opponents rush to criticize Obama for "attacking someone who just asked a tough question".

The whole thing is simply a big diversionary tactic from the GOP who's losing the election badly and mucking up anything they can to try to win. Joe himself got caught in the crossfire of something that was far too big for him.

Dd

[Fallakin Kuvari]

Dd is one of the few sane people on this board.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFC9jv9jfoA

Obama completely assumed that Joe the Plumber already owned the company and was already making 250k/year, its like he completely missed the fact that Joe said he "plans" to buy this company. He said multiple times that he had been a Plumber for 15 years, and Obama still had to ask him how long he had been a Plumber.

"Put yourself back 10 years ago, when you were only making.. 60.. 70..." He didn't even pay attention to the guy, he just assumed.

Flat tax would need "about a 40% sales tax".... the only thing coming to mind the whole time I'm listening to this is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqN84Il3 ... re=related because that really seems like all Obama does... Slings bullshit and the media just eats it up.

So, to be more direct Dd... I think Obama just started slinging bullshit. To me this guy is A1 politician, and that is he's probably the best bullshit slinger in Washington. I honestly don't see how he did an excellent job answering the question when he just assumed that the guy was already in that bracket. Joe never said he was already making that much, he said he was planning on buying a company that he assumed was making that much money...

You know what they say when you assume things, you make an ass out of you and me. Both people in this situation are at fault of that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDVM7ODUBn8

Thankfully Joe could see through the bullshit, because it is fucking Socialism.

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National Anthem/Pledge of Allegiance etiquette:

Pledge of Allegiance and national anthem

* The Pledge of Allegiance all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart;
* When the national anthem is played or sung;

(a) Designation.— The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem. (b) Conduct During Playing.— During a rendition of the national anthem— (1) when the flag is displayed— (A) all present except those in uniform should stand at attention. (B) men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold the headdress at the left shoulder, (C) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note; and (2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.

Regardless if his Grandfather taught him that or not, its wrong.

The guy wants to be our President and won't even wear an American flag pin on his lapel. No, instead he wants to "try to tell the American people what I believe will make this country great, and hopefully that will be a testimony to my patriotism." Bullshit, Bullshit, Bullshit comes to mind again. And of course some crazy fucking liberals in Iowa think its the best thing since sliced bread: "He doesn't need to wear that flag on his lapel. He wears it in his heart."

People are so fucking crazy for this guy they can't even see through a little of his bullshit, and that aggravates me to no end. The guy is not a Patriot, and he's shown it over and over... but no one seems to fucking care because he's the "Messiah"...

[Lurker]

That he "tap danced around it better than Fred Astaire"?

He said Sammy Davis Jr.

The Obama campagin sees Joe's lie about Obama and fires back with all the smearing power that only a Presidential campaign can muster - probably making the (incorrect) assumption that he was a GOP plant.

I still haven't seen any evidence that the Obama campaign smeared Joe. Can you link some?

He said multiple times that he had been a Plumber for 15 years, and Obama still had to ask him how long he had been a Plumber.

"Put yourself back 10 years ago, when you were only making.. 60.. 70..." He didn't even pay attention to the guy, he just assumed.

Really? Cause I only counted Joe saying 15 years one time. Why would you lie about that when we can all watch the video?

Obama's response was absoulutely spot on. Joe wanted to buy a business that makes 250k but 10 years ago he wasn't making 250k. It was perfectly clear. I think you should watch the video again.

Flat tax would need "about a 40% sales tax" ... re=related because that really seems like all Obama does... Slings bullshit and the media just eats it up.

The 40% number is accurate and that's what it would take to replace our current revenue. I'm not sure what propaganda site you get your information from, but don't blame Obama for your ignorance.

Obama is anti-american and he won't salute the flag or wear a flag pin and he hates america and he's not the "messiah"!!!!

You really need to wean yourself off the wingnut kool-aide. I don't think you have any idea how stupid you look when you post debunked and irrelevant stuff like that. Oh, and Obama has been wearing a flag pin for months ever since a vet at one of his rallys gave him one. McCain... no flag pin. ZOMG@!!!

[Lurker]

I watched the video again and Joe says "15 years" once, and only after Obama asked him how long he'd been a plumber so that he wouldn't have to assume anything about Joe's situation.

Fallakin, you lied about how many times Joe said "15 years" and you got it completely wrong when you said Obama "assumed" things about Joe. How is it possible you could watch a five minute video and get all the facts wrong like that? It's like you live in bizzaro world.

[Harlowe]

This whole "messiah" thing about a candidate that just happens to have a lot of positive support is rabid and irrational and precisely the kind of shit that people are tired of and why Obama is getting such positive support, not only from his own party - but people, politicians and publications that are conservatives and republican. You can't stand it that people are tired of the drama queen, faux patriotic bullshit. People want rational, they want intelligent, they want pragmatic. Not Orwellian or McCarthyistic ignorance, fear and hatred. It's not productive, it won't solve shit in this country and is just divisive partisan nonsense.

Ddrak absolutely is sane...he's also spot on.

The whole thing is simply a big diversionary tactic from the GOP who's losing the election badly and mucking up anything they can to try to win. Joe himself got caught in the crossfire of something that was far too big for him.

Of course you'll just deflect from that go into some more rabid Hannity-O'Reilly-esque-Faux-News dramatic nonsense about insignificant shit that has been debunked time and time again.

McCain's next desperate move - asking Joe the Plumber to go on the campaign trail with him.

Seriously. How fucking embarrassing.

[Fallakin Kuvari]

They're losing badly?

Poll's show Obama being up 6.4% and hes been losing ground all week. The IBD/TIPP poll has Obama up 3% among likely voters.

Wasn't Gore up like 10% going into November?

I think it's gonna be a lot closer than everyone in the media seems to think it is.

Also, the first time I ever heard anyone call Obama the "Messiah" it was a person that's a very liberal Democrat.

[Lurker]

Wasn't Gore up like 10% going into November?

No.

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Are you going to explain why you felt the need to lie about a video we can all watch with our own eyes?

[Fallakin Kuvari]

I watched it and jumped back a couple times and swore I heard him say it more than once. I rewatched it and I was incorrect.

There, happy douchebag?

And to re-address this question:

Wasn't Gore up in the polls at this point in the race in 2000?

[Harlowe]

I've never heard anyone other than rabid neo-cons call him "the messiah" or the "anointed one". It's one of their tactics. Your average Democrat nor Republican use use that term.

You're the one misrepresenting shit here, he's not the douchebag.

[Lurker]

I watched it and jumped back a couple times and swore I heard him say it more than once. I rewatched it and I was incorrect.

Ha! Just cause you replay something doesn't mean the person actually said it more than once.

That still doesn't explain how you got the entire exchange 180 degrees wrong though.

Obama didn't assume anything about Joe; he specifically asked him for information so he wouldn't have to assume. Obama also gave a brilliant answer to Joe's question with no tap dancing (Sammy Davis Jr. or otherwise). Obama also listened and gave substantive and factually correct answers to Joe's follow up questions. The exchange was something amazing to watch since Obama didn't behave like a typical politician at all.

Wasn't Gore up in the polls at this point in the race in 2000?

Gore was up in some polls and down in some polls in October, but not in the last two weeks of the campaign. Also, polls showing McCain as being close are using a likely voter model that isn't going to be accurate this year. I think youth and african-american turnout, and turnout in general, might be a little higher than it was in 2004. Just a hunch.

But what does all this have to do with flag-pins and Michelle Obama's hatred of America?

[Ddrak]

Look, just so we're not screwing up things, here's the transcript of the discussion between Joe and Obama:

Obama: What's your name?

Joe: My name's Joe Wurzelbacher.

Obama: Good to see you, Joe.

Joe: I'm getting ready to buy a company that makes about $250,000 … $270-$280,000 a year.

Obama: All right.

Joe: Your new tax plan's gonna tax me more, isn't it?

Obama: Well, here's what's gonna happen. If you're a small business which you would qualify as, first of all, you'd get a 50 percent tax credit, so you get a cut on taxes for your health care costs. So you would actually get a tax cut on that front. If your revenue is above $250,000, then from $250,000 down, your taxes are gonna stay the same. It is true that for … say, from $250,000 up, from $250,000 to $300,000 or so …

Joe: Well, here's my question …

Obama: I just want to answer your question. So, for that additional amount, you'd go from 36 to 39 percent, which is what it was under Bill Clinton. And the reason we're doing that is because 95 percent of small businesses make less than $250,000 so what I want to do is give them a tax cut. I want to give all these folks who are bus drivers, teachers, auto workers who make less … I want to give them a tax cut and so what we're doing is, we are saying that folks who make more than $250,000 that that marginal amount above $250,000, they're gonna be taxed at a 39 instead of a 36 percent rate.

Joe: Well, the reason why I ask you about the American Dream I mean, I work hard. I'm a plumber, I work 10-12 hours a day …

Obama: Absolutely.

Joe: … and I'm, you know, buying this company and I'm gonna continue to work that way. Now, if I buy another truck and adding something else to it and, you know, build the company, you know, I'm getting taxed more and more while fulfilling the American Dream.

Obama: Well, here's a way of thinking about it. How long have you been a plumber? How long have you been working?

Joe: Fifteen years.

Obama: Okay. So, over the last 15 years, when you weren't making $250,000, you would have been getting a tax cut from me. So you'd actually have more money, which means you would have saved more, which means that you would have gotten to the point where you could build your small business quicker than under the current tax code. So there are two ways of looking at it. I mean, one way of looking at it is, now that you've become more successful …

Joe: Through hard work.

Obama: … through hard work, you don't want to be taxed as much.

Joe: Exactly.

Obama: Which I understand. But another way of looking at it is, 95 percent of folks who are making less than $250,000, they may be working hard, too, but they're being taxed at a higher rate than they would be under mine. So what I'm doing is … you know, put yourself back 10 years ago when you were only making whatever — $60,000 or $70,000. Under my tax plan, you would be keeping more of your paycheck, you'd be spending lower taxes, which means that you would have saved and gotten to the point where you are faster. Now, look, nobody likes high taxes, right? Of course not. But what's happened is that we end up … we've cut taxes a lot for folks like me who make a lot more than $250,000. We haven't given a break to folks who make less and, as a consequence, the average wage and income for just ordinary folks, the vast majority of Americans, has actually gone down over the last eight years. So all I want to do is … I've got a tax cut. The only thing that changes is, I'm going to cut taxes a little bit more for the folks who are most in need, and for the 5 percent of the folks who are doing very well, even though they've been working hard … and I understand that; I appreciate that … I just want to make sure that they're paying a little bit more in order to pay for those other tax cuts. Now, I respect your disagreement, but I just want you to be clear. It's not that I want to punish your success. I just want to make sure that everybody who is behind you, that they've got a chance at success, too.

Joe: It seems like you'd be welcome to a flat tax then.

Obama: You know, I would be open to it except for … here's the problem with the flat tax. If you actually put a flat tax together, you'd probably … in order for it to work and replace all the revenue that we've got, you'd probably end up having to make it like about a 40 percent sales tax. I mean, the value added, making it up. Now, some people say 23 or 25, but, in truth, when you add up all the revenue that would need to be raised, you'd have to slap on a whole bunch of sales taxes on it. And I do believe that for folks like me who are, you know, have worked hard but, frankly, also been lucky, I don't mind paying just a little bit more than the waitress who I just met over there, who's … things are slow and she can barely make the rent. Because my attitude is that if the economy's good for folks from the bottom up, it's gonna be good for everybody. If you've got a plumbing business, you're gonna be better off if you've got a whole bunch of customers who can afford to hire you. And right now, everybody's so pinched that business is bad for everybody. And I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody. But, listen, I respect what you do and I respect your question. And even if I don't get your vote, I'm still gonna be working hard on your behalf 'cause I want to make sure … small businesses are what creates jobs in this country and I want to encourage it. All right. (applause) One other thing I didn't mention. For small-business people, I'm gonna eliminate the capital gains tax, so what it means is if your business succeeds and let's say you take it from a $250,000 business to a $500,000 business, that capital gains that you get, we're not gonna tax you on it 'cause I want you to grow more so you're actually going … you may end up … I'd have to look at your particular business but you might end up paying lower taxes under my plan and my approach than under John McCain's plan. I can't guarantee that 'cause I'd have to take a look at your business.

Joe: Okay, I understand that.

Obama: All right. Thanks for the question, though. I appreciate it. Okay, guys, I gotta get out here. I've gotta go prepare for this debate. But that was pretty good timing. Thanks.

First, Obama didn't "assume Joe already owned the company". Joe asked him if he'd get taxed more should he buy the company and Obama directly answered that question. The 60.. 70.. thing - maybe. It applies even more if the number goes down further so it's no "gotcha" moment. The point he's making is he believes making taxes more progressive will get everyone to the higher level faster (I'm not sure I agree), but he's making the case for his plan.

A flat tax that replaces everything else would have to be around 40%, but it depends a lot on the implementation. A VAT would be a lot lower than that. The "flat tax" plan which only taxes the final step is closer to that mark, at least if you believe its opponents analysis.

Thankfully Joe could see through the bullshit, because it is fucking Socialism.

No, it's not. Socialism would be Joe being a public servant and not owning anything. You do realize "businesses" don't exist in socialism, right?

Something a lot closer to socialism than a 3% rise in high end taxes would be the government buying up shares of the nation's banks. In fact, the true socialists would be somewhat right in claiming it was a dramatic failure of capitalism and a partial validation of their belief system.

Honestly, people throw the term "socialism" around so much I swear they don't bother to look up what it really means.

The guy wants to be our President and won't even wear an American flag pin on his lapel.

You're insane. Take this fact - Obama had an American Flag pin on his label in all three debates. McCain had no pin in any debate. Go look at the videos.

Obama is just as much a patriot as McCain (probably more in my opinion). He's trying to do the best he believes he can for America. To suggest anything else is just plain blind partisan stupidity and flies in the face of every fact out there.


On polling, the national percentage is meaningless because it only gives the popular vote. To do proper analysis you need to go on a state-by-state level and work out the likely outcomes. http://www.fivethirtyeight.com has about the best interpretation of polling data I've seen if you look into their methods.

I believe Bush and Gore were a statistical dead heat (within 2-3%) at a national level going into November, but poll analysis wasn't as sophisticated back then.

Dd

[Partha]

Honestly, people throw the term "socialism" around so much I swear they don't bother to look up what it really means.

People got headfaked by 'National Socialism', which is little more than a government doing business for the businesses.

[Fallakin Kuvari]

I've never heard anyone other than rabid neo-cons call him "the messiah" or the "anointed one". It's one of their tactics. Your average Democrat nor Republican use use that term.

You're the one misrepresenting shit here, he's not the douchebag.

You wanna know the origin of the 'Messiah' thing?

"You are the instruments that God is going to use to bring about universal change, and that is why Barack has captured the youth. And he has involved young people in a political process that they didn't care anything about. That's a sign. When the Messiah speaks, the youth will hear, and the Messiah is absolutely speaking."

He's clearly implying that Obama is the "Messiah".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2oqS5VwSbg

I wouldn't exactly call him a neo-con, would you?

[Lurker]

Hey dumbshit, how can that be the origin when it was from Feb? The "messiah" bullshit has been around for well over a year now.

Oh... and who cares what Farrakhan said anyways?

[Fallakin Kuvari]

Hey dumbshit, how can that be the origin when it was from last month? The "messiah" bullshit has been around for over a year now.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=77539
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23333598/
http://www.associatedcontent.com/articl ... s_the.html
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id ... _article=1

Addressing a large crowd behind a podium Feb. 24 with a Nation of Islam Saviour's Day 2008 sign, Farrakhan proclaims,

"You are the instruments that God is going to use to bring about universal change, and that is why Barack
has captured the youth. And he has involved young people in a political process that they didn't care anything about. That's a sign. When the Messiah speaks, the youth will hear, and the Messiah is absolutely speaking."

Its hardly from last month, and it certainly hasn't been around for over a year now (kudos to you if you can prove me wrong from a reliable source).

Sorry asshole, but I do believe you're the dumbshit here.

[Lurker]

In fairness to Fallakin, my post did say "last month" for about 30 seconds before I corrected it.

He's still a racist dumbshit though.

[Fallakin Kuvari]

Prove me wrong, you piece of shit.

[Harlowe]

You are wrong, stop being such a petulant retard about it. Most of it started right after Oprah called him "the one". That is when whole "annointed one" thing was started by critics.

That's last year, so why is Lurker the shithead? Through the whole primary run it was going on. Just Google the annointed one and Clinton you'll find a all kinds of random snipes about it. If you just do "annointed one" you'll get page after page of shit, so you'll have to dig for the 2007 remarks. But it's there..

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/200 ... y28960.asp

More than a year ago "annointed one" snipes
http://blogs.tampabay.com/buzz/2007/03/ ... ng_to.html

[Lurker]

Prove me wrong, you piece of shit.

According to nexis...

The first Obama "messiah" reference was an AP story from July 18th, 2005.

The National Journal's Hotline made an Obama "messiah" reference in an article titled "READY OR NOT, MESSIAH HE BECOMES" on Sept. 5th, 2006.

Newsweek said Obama was "received in a manner more befitting a messiah than a junior senator" in an article from Sept 11th, 2006.

Mort Kondrake used "messiah" to descibe Obama on the Fox News show The Beltway Boys on Dec. 16th, 2006.

But clearly... the origin is that scary Farrakhan quote from Feb. 2008 you keep pushing. And as Harlowe points out, we're talking about the slur used against Obama and his supporters.

[Fallakin Kuvari]

Congrats, you seemingly proved me wrong (though links would've been nice, I'll accept that at a later date).

Harlowe: I'm not ignoring you, my beef is just with Lurker (obviously).