Clan Ascension Jumps Fear raid

Post by **Ddrak** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 9:43 am

Zany,

You either don't know what you are talking about or are deliberately making shit up. VS, Vox and Naggy all came off reservation because of their abuse for epic drops. Naggy and Vox were on a rotation long before epics came into the game (you do remember back that far, right?) and VS and Trak were put on a rotation by de-facto because the higher end content from the original game was on a rotation.

The reason the armor mobs in PoF and PoH are on reservations still is solely for the reason that it provides younger guilds with a place to train for high end raids without being able to seriously block people on epic drops. If the epic mobs were included then the reservation system would vanish overnight.

Trak came off reservations because most people wanted him FCFS. You do remember there was a vote on that one, right? One reason was the VP key but the main reason was the spawn timer change which made it impossible to police. Nag and Vox went off reservations because people showed they were using the reservation system to sign up the same group every week. When Jaradis required them to put a list of raiders with their signup it fell down to 2 groups alternating - showing that there was really no need for a system.

If you don't think the high end guilds could take down Nag or Vox if they felt like it then you're either ignorant, a fool or both. There's this wonderful concept called Lv52 alts...

Zany wrote:Actually I was invoking the name of the PnP as an example of how people get what they want. You call it the FCFS system when its basically the same goddamn thing.

No, it's not "the same goddamn thing". PnP states whoever engages first wins. FCFS says whoever has sufficient force and is prepared first wins. There is a vast difference and you're obviously too busy with your head up your ass to figure it out.

99% of the server is FCFS. 100% of the content tougher than Fear is FCFS. I see no evidence of the anarchy or raid jumping you are predicting so you are basically an ignorant fool who has no idea what the fuck they are talking about. There are far more rants about reservations than there are about FCFS mobs. Perhaps that would tell you something but I'm guessing you won't acknowledge it.

To look at your summary of "The reservations systems are not only a way to keep some sort of semblence of order publicly, but also to give people a shot at things that might otherwise be completely hogged by a few people", all you are doing is crying "help, help I'm being oppressed" when there is absolutely no evidence that anything of the sort is the case. When you see the black helicopters, let me know...

Planar reservations only reserve the armor mobs, no matter how much you want to validate your point by people abusing the system for epics. This is why you can go up between raids and take a shot at the epic mobs without violating the reservation system and it's why it has been that way for years. Just because YOU refuse to admit that the epic mobs aren't reserved doesn't mean they aren't. It just means you're delusional.

Edyil,

Votes were already held. Reservations lost on all but PoF and PoH armor mobs. They were also held much more fairly than one vote per guild - after all what reason is there to give a person in a 10-man guild ten times the vote of someone in a 100-man guild? Voting is and always has been one vote per person.

Dd

Kulanae Soulsease · Post by **Kulanae Soulsease** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 10:31 am

I would just like to say......thank you.

It's posts like these that have done more to help abbolish reservations than any 20 of us on the FCFS side of the fence could ever hope to accomplish through logic and reason.

Bless you!

Cartumandua · Post by **Cartumandua** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 10:46 am

What Kulanae just said.

I used to be pro-reservations because I thought it just made the game smoother and more courteous.

Then I took a look around at the people who were also supporting mad reservations everywhere and realized that I was surrounded by idiots. So I climbed over to the other side of the fence.

Keep up the entitlement whines, it just demonstrates exactly why people really want reservations, and it has nothing to do with courtesy.

Emetibu · Post by **Emetibu** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 11:08 am

I agree Cart. I too always was pro reservations. I thought it was a very courteous way to allow people a planar raid. Especially since these are the original raid training and on a good day stomping grounds for most guilds.

The assumption that epic mobs are a guarantee with the reservation is what is wrong.
I am still hoping they stay in place for the younger guilds to get the chance that we "old-school" folks have had. Then again after listening to so much of the shit in this thread I am starting to think that they have outlived their original purpose.

/slowly sways over the fence

Harlowe · Post by **Harlowe** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 11:13 am

I just echo the past comments here really, I'd like to see them in place for younger players, guilds with younger players or young guilds in general to have use of this system just like we all have had use of and enjoyed in our younger days.

But yeah, this whole "if you don't leave epic mobs up for me you are greedy assholes" thing just really sways you to the other side ..wondering if enough people really use it for what it was intended.

Laylee · Post by **Laylee** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:16 pm

[quote="Edyil Crossfire"]Not everyone. As I said, most folks respect others intentions. There are select few that dont give a shit though. Those are the entitlement whores. Or, since you dont like that term for this instance, assholes. [quote]

Ah, so as I rarely read the main board, I'm an entitlement whore? I don't remember anyone ever calling me an entitlement whore *or* an asshole. You've been talking about me behind my back again, haven't you? <scratches head> According the the rules, the only thing that is reserved are the planes and so unless I'm looking for information, I almost never need to go to the main board.

Case in point: the 3rd CoM raid I lead.

The long and short, another raiding force arrived about 15 minutes before our 2nd round of reavers. I got a tell saying they were there for the shaman epic, we said they were welcome to Rak as we weren't doing anything with him. I was told we had to leave as they had posted their raid on the brell boards as LFM and they had people that wanted to get to the reavers as well.

Everyone on my raid agreed that LFM on the brell boards does not = reservations and as we had been there 3 hours already, we decided to stay. I don't believe that it makes me an entitlement whore or an asshole because I wanted the raid that I worked to put together to be able to finish what we started.

Laylee

Jaradis Stormcaller · Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:22 pm

In fact, when the reservation system for Trakanon was ousted, was NOT one of the main reasons being because the uber guilds wanted to get his teeth for keys and did NOT want to have to wait for their turn on the list? The other reason was because of the change of the spawn timer after patch for Trakanon and other dragons, but the point remained the same. They wanted him to become a FCFS mob because of what they wanted, and how is that NOT entitlement whoring or being an elitist asshole? Yes, people, especially Twiggie, will pipe in about how the system was being abused and blah blah bullshit, but the same was said about Nagafen and Vox. Now regarding Vox and Naggy, those are extreme circumstances based upon a level limited mob, which couldn't therefore be hogged by higher level guilds who had other dragons to take out that would result in the same thing. But at the time, that decision was done based upon not only the regular dragon loot, but the EPIC drops that were involved with those wurms. So dont tell me the reservations systems have nothing to do with epic mobs. VS, Vox, and Naggy were all reservable BECAUSE of their epic involvement, but you couldn't and still can't reserve a plane for those things.

Trakanon was moved because his spawn time was changed to random after server up and random respawn. This made it near impossible to track when he would be up and many guilds would wait days to kill him, thus causing the already long list (18-20 guilds) to have to wait even longer. So he was removed. Under FCFS guilds that wanted him would kill him instantly on popping and overall the server would see more Teeth and BP's enter into the game.

Venril Sathir's list was removed because it was over a YEAR LONG, and the same crew was being brought to every raid, just a different "host".

Vox and Nagafen were removed for similar reasons, certain guilds were using smaller guilds and indies to make multiple sign ups for the dragons, when I put a stop to that there were only a very small handful of guilds even on the list, in fact only 1 or 2 on Vox. At that point, we (the admins at Brell boards) were not going to keep a reservation that basically said "only this guild can kill Vox and no one else can" so we eliminated the lists and let those that wanted to kill them kill them. I have yet to hear of Vox or Nagafen not being killed and quite often I hear of raids being put together because either is up.

None of the rotations were ever about Epic drops, they just happened to have Epic drops on them.

farbekrieg · Post by **farbekrieg** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:24 pm

damn cant we all just smoke a bong and get along?

Seems like the idea of epics should be pretty damn dead by now? The fact that verant/sony has chosen to allow some multiple day spawns to be force spawned while not others at this point still boggles me. I understand the entire time sink thing, and things like being lvl 60 and getting xp was considered one of them, but with pop it will take me considerably less time to get from 60 to 65 then 50 to 55. So why not have a quest in zones like FEAR/HATE to collect items that will spawn yer bastard golem who has the same chance of dropping yer epic peice as they normally do, make it take 2-3x of clearin the zone to collect all the peices and then still get hosed when yer golem refuses to drop your soulleech sword of blood. (personally i was 0/10 on golem drops ) in my 25 or so raid attempts at fear, (soulleech can be replaced with tear, slime blood etc).

Then again Sonys bitch ass should remove the ability to mq epic stuff so people wont loot some items knowin they can mq them off at a later date, nothing more annoying then to see that epic peice which has eluded you, or better yet awarded to someone else on the raid being mqed in auction at a later date.

Planar multiple day mobs are more annoying then non planar ones in that you have to clear good portions of the plane to get to them and then for some epics their are no certainties your epic peice will drop.

as for my 2 bits on reservations fuck em, Either you can or cant kill a mob when its up named or otherwise, if your there kill it if you can the game like life isnt fair. Im sure the heoric Baron Von Poopypantz never bothered to check to see if the hideous red dragon was scheduled to be killed by his rival Sir Snugnuggets sometime friday around noonish.

You see, You kill
You see, you try to kill and die...
You set up a group of friends or groups friends friends and come back and try again

Teellony · Post by **Teellony** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:25 pm

One thing I don't understand and maybe you can explain it for me.

You said that if LoTS had taken out all of the epic mobs you would have been happy for them as you are friends with them, yet when your guild found out that none of the epic mobs where up none of them wanted to go on the planned raid then.

I don't understand why when you and your guild knew there was a guild scheduled to be in there the night before, I believe start time was 9 p.m. pst, that you would have been alright and raid would have gone off as planned even if all the epic mobs where down. Yet when another guild goes in, leaves the plane most likely around the time LoTS would have been leaving, kills the mobs you call foul play.

Please explain your reasoning behind this as I just do not understand it.

Tee

Awea · Post by **Awea** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:30 pm

I remember the VS list being pure ass. I mean, how many people needed him? Every class wanted their legs; druids, rangers, wizards wanted their epic pieces; other people wanted a few shiny objects he had. Like Jaradis said, the list was frickin huge! But I guess it was ended because people wanted phat lewts! I've been lied to for over 1.5 years!

Post by **Ddrak** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:32 pm

To be fair to them, they heard from a ranger sent in much earlier that nothing was spawned in the plane. Rumors seemed to have spread (as rumors do) that there would be nothing spawned by raid time, based on the (incorrect) information that CA had only just started killing at 5am EST when in fact they were all but done by then.

I'm fairly sure had they had correct information about the activities of CA and when they went in, and had someone go in and recheck track to see the armor mobs spawning then the raid would more than likely have happened and Edyil wouldn't have gone off his nut to start this thread.

Dd

Vumil · Post by **Vumil** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 2:38 pm

Edyil,

Voting has been done along time ago when the majority of people cared about it more so than now. I can already tell you what the results would be now.

Trak was removed because of spawn time issues, threads like this, failures from guilds week after week after week, the fact that people who knew there turn was coming up wouldn't even be ready for it which extended spawn times by 2-3 days at times. And it prevented guilds from getting teeth for VP and moving on. You all know how much better it worked under FSFS.

Nag, Vox and VS were removed because the lists were getting to big, people who knew there turn was coming up wouldn't even be ready for it which extended spawn times by 2-3 days at times, guilds and groups of people got multiple raids by combining and taking each other to those raids effectively having a group of people with 2+ reservations. And VS's list was insanely long and it wasn't going to get any shorter.

The only reason fear/hate/sky were kept is because of the relatively fast spawn time and our ability to modify the rules to prevent abuses.

Arathena · Post by **Arathena** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 2:48 pm

Now, as having been a little part of the decision making when Dhark chose to instigate for the removal of the Trakanon rotation, I've got a few other points to those screaming 'It's the ubers wanting to take take take!'. We were, at the time, a rather typical stronger, smaller guild, a decent amount of Kael armor, a good 25-30 people a night.. and no place to go play as a guild. NToV was being systematically butchered by someone, I think actually Ensh at the time. SR was playing around in Ssra, and GoTR/DA had all the ST key mobs pegged down. So, we said, 'Let's go to VP.' Now, we spent a couple months negotiating for teeth MQ's, waiting our turn on Trakanon just like everyone else.. and then, we asked for the community to reconsider the rotation. Most of the rest of the community voted to remove the rotation.We killed Trakanon the next three spawns once the old rotation finished, even to the point of dropping our guaranteed slot just to make to go faster... And then.. we LEFT.

That's right, folks. There was something we wanted, we got it, and we didn't need to stand around in line for 9 months wasting the Trakanons and time of the people that wanted armor on the off chance that we might want more VP keys in 10 months. Except for a poke to see if we could kill him with one group, I haven't seen Trakanon since the week after the rotation ended... Leaving the smaller guilds who want bard epics and Trakanon BPs free reign instead of still being on The List. I honestly wonder what guilds that were on that list when it ended are no longer killing Trakanon, but would be today if they needed to wait two months when one group decided they wanted their twinks to play hopscotch in VP.

Post by **Ddrak** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 3:08 pm

The best parts of the Trak vote were (i) it was initiated by a "non-uber" guild - Poison Arrow and (ii) Some idiot spamming the following message to every board and instantly losing the vote for reservations:

This is very important guys...please let everyone in the guild know to go vote on this. The "powers that be" are trying to make Trakanon FCFS instead of reservable. This could pose problems for the many smaller guilds out there that could take him down with preparation, but not necessarily on the spur of the moment. Your vote needs to be made quickly!

Sounds vaguely familiar, doesn't it?

Dd

Jokanaan · Post by **Jokanaan** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 4:03 pm

http://www.bored.com/questions.htm

I know this discussion is on here somewhere, but I can't for the life of me find it....

Subtle · Post by **Subtle** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 5:18 pm

I remember the VS list being pure ass. I mean, how many people needed him? Every class wanted their legs; druids, rangers, wizards wanted their epic pieces; other people wanted a few shiny objects he had. Like Jaradis said, the list was frickin huge! But I guess it was ended because people wanted phat lewts! I've been lied to for over 1.5 years!

The worst abusers (not the only ones) of the VS list were rangers and druids wanting the epic drop. Some rangers were from non uber guilds.. and some where from uber guilds. The list was god aweful rediculous. I never cared one bit that it went away.. it was how the list disappeared that was the bad part.... Having the list just dropped, and a mod blaming a certain guild for it.. was just lame.

I was never really for or against reservations.. I never cared much about it. EQ is for fun.. and no matter if I have to reserve something and wait.. or go kill it fcfs.. I refused to let that infringe on my enjoyment of EQ.

Both sides of the debate have always called the other side greedy.... Take PA's example.. and Dhark is a class act btw, he always has been.. and I have known him a long ass time. Pro reservationists would call a guild like PA greedy for not wanting to wait their turn on a list. Pro FCFS ppl would call ppl who wanted to wait on a list, greedy for wanting to block people that could kill it.. and toss in the term entitlement whores for good measure. Those insults went back and forth for a long time. I never really considered either side *greedy*, even though some ppl damn sounded bad heh (and I called a couple ppl greedy back then heh). but hell when we signed up for Naggy.. we waited 2 months for our turn to come around, I can understand an able guild having issues with waiting two months to kill a big mob (back then there wasn't tons of mobs to kill).

The ironic thing is I played by the rules.. I waited till we had enough ppl of age to do naggy and vox to join the lists, but by the time our turn came around (2 months later).. I had to struggle to find ppl under 53. SOH killed Naggy I think once and Vox twice thanks to the lists. We killed Trak the first time at the end of the lists.. as one of the last few names on the list. Back then yes we benefited from the Trak list, because in all honesty we did not have the numbers to be able to fcfs and beat any competition for him. I also would not of lost any sleep if there never was such a list.

At the end of the day, many many people benefited from the reservations.. they were a good thing for alot of people. I can remember way back when, joining other guilds plane raids regularly, and still have many continued frienships from those times. Before epics, the competition for things was much more friendly.. I still to this day, think the epic quests were the worst things Verant ever added to the game.. they really created a level of competition and greed that never really was there before(at least so flagrantly).

Each one of the lists, out lived its usefulness at some point. Right now, the idea of having VS reserved sounds so ludicrous to me, where as 2 years ago.. a reservation was a nice security blanket for many. EQ has changed alot since then. I have no problem keeping hate/fear reservable. Their lack of activity is nice.. it gives people who want to do FCFS raids there plenty of time to do it.. while still allow ppl to reserve them. Fear and Hate I personally think outlived their usefullness as reserved zones.. but I dont think it hurts anyone keeping them reservable, nor does it hinder any one's progression.

Anyways, sorry to keep this going so long.. if I am slightly off on some facts sorry.. most of this stuff happened two years ago heh. I think many people around brell, initially thought reservations were the best thing to come to brell, but as they progressed in time, skill, level and most importantly experience, realized that we do not need reservations to be able to play together and have fun in EQ.. all it takes is some maturity, patience and treating each other with the same respect you expect others to treat you with. Sure there are some guilds or people that may not show other guilds/people any respect.. but they are generally few and far between and break up eventually

.

Zeck · Post by **Zeck** » Tue Apr 22, 2003 8:01 pm

guess that was supposed to clear him of any wrong doing. Well here is a little something for you: Fuck you. You bunch of cum burping dickheads. You fucking assholes make me sick. I work my ass off to set up this shit and run it, just to have fucking pricks like you run over us. Well Fuck off and die, you shit stains.

Go play in traffic, you rotten fuckers.

ROFL!! I haven't seen such a steaming buttload of inanities in a long time! Thanks Edyil for the link on our board! Didn't know this place existed...I've read this entire thread and have been in tears laughing! Congratulations people for the good read! Edyil? Seriously...You need to get laid! Or at least get into the manual method more frequently! It would do wonders for your mental health and emotional stability!

Kestri · Post by **Kestri** » Wed Apr 23, 2003 8:47 am

Ok I got a PM about this issue and I am so glad I advised the person to deal with it here. I will never support a change that allows epic mobs to be claimed. do you know how many guilds leave fear without boss mobs being taken down? It is crazy! Any time a raid leaves the mobs up generally they are killed by another guild that heard they were still up. To come here and rant just because *you* reserved it and when the raid before you didn't kill them you want to demand your right to kill them? Nuh uh won't fly here...

Now the people who had the true right to gripe were the quiet people who let me know that they zoned into Hate and there was a group there hunting the zone. There was a true reason to complain about a reservation being walked over. But they didn't post here, they asked the group to leave, they did and everyone was happy. that is was give me tha pleasure of continuing to be a mod for reservations.

Post by **Ddrak** » Wed Apr 23, 2003 3:48 pm

And so the end of reservations begins. I was kinda hoping no one would be retarded enough to move this to the Brell boards but it's there now.

I guess in completely failing to garner any support whatsoever (Zany doesn't count) here, having the thread locked rebuffed and deleted in the Hate section wasn't a big enough clue for people to take a mug of STFU so we get the moron brigade posting about honor and blaming Silent Redemption of all people for the oppression...

Dd

Crelone · Post by **Crelone** » Wed Apr 23, 2003 3:52 pm

Dd,

Your response was much better than mine. It's starting to make me hot under the collar and I took some of his words personally.