Obama vs McCain

[Ddrak]

Time to start the real '08 thread...

Obama being elected Prez just ain't gonna happen. All those older and poorer whites ain't gonna vote for the uppity nigga. They'll vote for McCain, who isn't really that conservative anyway.

Think it's true?

Dd

[Embar Angylwrath]

Time to start the real '08 thread...

Obama being elected Prez just ain't gonna happen. All those older and poorer whites ain't gonna vote for the uppity nigga. They'll vote for McCain, who isn't really that conservative anyway.

Think it's true?

Dd

I think whoever wrote that has his finger on the pulse of American politics....

[Chants Evensong]

Quite essentially does this man Embar have the pulse on American politics.

In 1852.

[Ddrak]

I honestly think a lot depends on what happens in October. If there's any year for a great October surprise then it's 2008. Could happen either way and I think the Iraq war will be a critical factor. If Iraq turns worse then McCain loses a lot of votes. If it settles then Obama doesn't get some of the mileage he needs against McCain.

I think the "uppity nigga" numbers will be interesting to see just how far the US has come in racism in the last 40 years, and I'm not saying any of the rest of the world is any better there. I seriously doubt we'll see an Aboriginal Prime Minister here for a long time, for example.

McCain has a lot more work to do in getting out the vote than Obama does - especially if the Obama campaign can successfully tar him with the unpopularity of GWB.

It's going to be an interesting battle.

Dd

[Rsak]

Honestly I am rather torn on this whole election. On numerous issues I very clearly disagree with Obama and I am much closer aligned to the centrist McCain.

Yet with the horrible job that the Republicans did with both the legislative and executive I wonder if they just need to be beaten down and rebuild. The Democrats are not in much better state with the primary fiasco of this year.

So while McCain is probably the closest to my political views I can't decide on what will be best for the country long term. What ever happens I could probably live with the results as long as it is not a Clinton ticket or Bush ticket, but I doubt Obama or McCain are stupid enough to pick either of them as their VPs.

[Ddrak]

If I was voting (not my country, so not my privilege) I'd be in much the same position. My personal politics lean right, well, lean libertarian mostly but McCain bothers me with the way he seems to continually shift positions. For a long time in the Senate he was a voice of reason and brokered deals with the Democrats to avoid filibusters. Then he starts a run for President and needs to reach out to the Bush supporters to gain the nomination and he's suddenly all about divisive politics again. It makes me especially pissy when he does seem to be trying to drop the level of the debate to personal attacks and make me wonder if the whole thing is going to devolve to that again.

It also bothers me that he preaches campaign finance reform and open disclosure but flies around in his wife's jet and refuses to open her tax returns for inspection. I know she's not "required" to, but there's a whole bunch of hypocrisy going on around that.

Obama on the other hand seems pretty keen to attempt to keep his integrity. No clue if he's just well groomed for that or not, but he's done very well so far at giving that impression. While I do disagree with more of his politics than I do McCain's, I respect him as a person a lot more.

I would be torn between choosing someone I respect more or someone whose politics I tend to agree more with. Neither are particularly "libertarian" in outlook though, sadly.

Dd

[Embar Angylwrath]

Quite essentially does this man Embar have the pulse on American politics.

In 1852.

The incredible split in the Democratic vote shows that a lot of the country is still living in 1852. Obama gets the black vote (overwhelmingly so, a sign if racism in the black community) Of the whites, he gets the youth vote (who, I think, aren't racist at all), and the educated vote (who either aren't racist, or maybe they are and feel guilty about it so they compensate by voting for a black man).

Of teh remaining white vote, Hillary dominates with older Americans (racist) and blue collar workers (racist)

Since their policy messages are almost carbon copies of another, they should be splitting the vote much more closely if race wasn't such a big factor.

[Tarfang_Trubasher]

I don't feel like I've heard what any of the current nominees actually plan to do. I hear a lot of circle jerk talking, but nothing with some meat.

Sure, Obama and Clinton want to tax the crap out of the oil companies. What a nifty idea! Let's make it more more expensive for them to do their work, thus making them have to raise the price at the pump to compensate. Also, universal health care seems to be their platform. Do they not see how this is failing? I was speaking with a Canadian friend of mine about this. He was having a laugh at American politicians being so blind. If anything, the divisiveness of the Dem's has probably helped more than it's hurt. It has netted them a large amount of media coverage. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if the ticket was meant to be Clinton/Obama (or Obama/Clinton) this whole time.

As for John McCain, I'm still on the fence. I find myself still digging for more information on where he's at. He is known to "flip-flop" on some things. He's attributed that to "I'm listening to the people, and their view has changed!" I haven't verified those to be certain.

If anyone has McCain info. to share - I know I'd certainly appreciate it. My focus has been on the Dem's and their crazy, Socialist agendas.

Something I feel is important to note, whether others feel the same way or not...

The President is responsible for acting as our Commander-In-Chief. That's the primary goal. Congress makes the laws, even the President vetoes it, he/she can be overridden by another Congressional vote. It might do us better to look at their foreign policies and military actions before looking at how they want to screw up our nation any further with laws.

[Tarfang_Trubasher]

(Edit: Removed pointless post as it really added nothing to the real conversation)

-TF

[Partha]

I find it...interesting that people are actively digging for positions that McCain takes while NOT digging for positions that Obama takes. Especially since McCain takes so MANY different positions based on, I dunno, time of day, who he's talking to, etc.

He said waterboarding is torture, and then voted AGAINST provisions outlawing waterboarding.

He voted against Bush's tax cuts in 2001, and now says he wants to make them permanent.

He claims to be for clean campaigns, but flies around on his wife's jet to get around his own campaign finance law.

Of course, for me the deal breakers aren't those things, but the simple ones.

He supports continuing the occupation of Iraq.

He supports continuing the Bush domestic policies that have failed so miserably.

He supports continuing the Bush foreign policies crafted by the neocons that have failed so miserably as well - it's worth noting here that Robert Kagan is his top foreign policy advisor.

In short, he's George Bush with new window curtains on the White House. That's not acceptable.

[Embar Angylwrath]

I think part of that, Partha, is that McCain has been around long enough to have a position(s). Obama hasn't really shown that he has much in the way of a solid policy position in many areas.

And I say this as a non-fan of McCain.

[Partha]

Like what, exactly?

[Saevrok]

Well guys, I'll be honest, you cannot take anything a man says during an election year and hold it as what he believes, Because in truth, its more than likely a pack of lies. Look at his past voting habits and ideas, before he was trying to get elected.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Like what, exactly?

Are you asking me what Obama's policy positions are? I don't know. He really hasn't articulated much in the way of a well thought out policy.

As for McCain... he's not a real social conservative, his policy poistions have changed and he's moved steadily to the center. He has had few policy positions that he has stuck to since he first got into politics. But given the amount of time he's been in politics, I would expect some of that for anyone.

About the only policy position he hasn't moved much on is his campaign finance reform. Not that he's been very successful with it.

But I do know this about the man. If he says he was under fire by snipers, I'd believe him.

Let me ask you this Partha. If the presidential race came down to Clinton and McCain, who would you vote for?

[Partha]

Probably the Green Party candidate to attempt to keep them statewide, frankly. Illinois will go blue with or without me, and Clinton isn't much different from McCain.

Now, explain again which policy positions of Obama's that you've seriously attempted to investigate did you feel were less than solid - or less solid than McCain's?

[Embar Angylwrath]

Well..

As I said, McCain has had shifting policy positions. Obama, in my experience, hasn't really formed solid policy positions. I don't know what else to to tell you. I haven't "investigated" Obama's policy positions because, in my opinion, he hasn't articulated a policy position to investigate.

[Partha]

So, in other words, you're claiming to know nothing about Obama's policy positions and that you haven't looked to see if he has any?

[Embar Angylwrath]

So, in other words, you're claiming to know nothing about Obama's policy positions and that you haven't looked to see if he has any?

I've been following the candidates pretty closely. I really haven't seen much in the way of solid policy positions from Obama. Have you?

[Kulaf]

I've looked at Obama's website and it pretty much reads like a pipe dream......a utopia where the government takes care of everything.

There is no way he can accomplish what he wants without not only ending the Bush tax cuts......but raising taxes as well. The only question is will he at least have the testicular fortitude of a Walter Mondale and admit it to the American people.

[Partha]

So, in other words, you're claiming to know nothing about Obama's policy positions and that you haven't looked to see if he has any?

I've been following the candidates pretty closely. I really haven't seen much in the way of solid policy positions from Obama. Have you?

Actually, I have. What's fairly obvious here is that you're dodging my question. What policy positions IN PARTICULAR do you find of his to be less solid than John McCain's?