Clinton v. Obama

[Klast Brell]

OK I guess that the top 1% is a good dividing line between the well off and the rich. But I personally cant wrap my head around it as a way of grouping people financially for tax etc. I took several sociology courses in college and I understand where they are getting at when they talk about these classes as social cadres. Sharing certain values and attitudes. But when it comes to looking at incomes and ability to afford "nice things" Someone making 40K is not going to be looking for a house in the same neighborhood as someone making 200K. Likewise those figures put 50% to 52% of the population in to the lower class. The single largest block of the population. (Too bad so many of them can't be bothered to drag their asses down to the voting booth, and so many of them are prevented from voting by manipulations at the state and county level. )

The Federal government even breaks up in to 6 groups based on our income.

2008 tax brackets.jpg

[Ddrak]

I'm guessing that the cutoff between lower and middle for most of the sociological studies is about where home ownership becomes possible (pre subprime stupidity at least). It's not that the people making 40k and the people making 200k are looking at the same homes, it's simply the fact they are looking at homes and not looking for rentals.

Dd

[Klast Brell]

Not to bring this back on topic, but Clinton took Pennsylvania by 10% last night.

Pundits had predicted this as the threshold she needed to sustain her bid for the nomination. This morning it's all over the news. What is getting less coverage is that 1 in 10 voters in the Pennsylvania democratic primary had switched their affiliation in order to register as democrats and be allowed to vote in the primary. Assuming that all of them were participating in Rush Limbaugh's "Operation Chaos" this actually brings Obama the win by a tiny margin. Other reports before the election were saying that 160,000 had switched their affiliation from Republican to Democrat. If you go with this figure Hillary gets a 2% margin. Still a win, but not enough to give her the "momentum" that was predicted.

[Arathena]

Not to bring this back on topic, but Clinton took Pennsylvania by 10% last night.

Pundits had predicted this as the threshold she needed to sustain her bid for the nomination. This morning it's all over the news. What is getting less coverage is that 1 in 10 voters in the Pennsylvania democratic primary had switched their affiliation in order to register as democrats and be allowed to vote in the primary. Assuming that all of them were participating in Rush Limbaugh's "Operation Chaos" this actually brings Obama the win by a tiny margin. Other reports before the election were saying that 160,000 had switched their affiliation from Republican to Democrat. If you go with this figure Hillary gets a 2% margin. Still a win, but not enough to give her the "momentum" that was predicted.

It looks like a lot of Clinton's raw votes came out of the greater Philadelphia area, narrower margins elsewhere, This makes me less inclined to plant this on Rush, and more inclined to plant it on Fast Uncle Eddie's endorsement, who's been shitting straight down the throats of Philadelphians and talking them into thinking they like it for years.

[Embar Angylwrath]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/ ... tpop_story

A deeper look at the numbers in PA (and elsewhere) really shows where the cracks are in the Democratic party. Unions, un-educated white people, lower income white people for Hillary. Blacks, educated white people, youth vote and richer white people for Obama.

Why?

Because lower income, lower educated and union people all share one thing in common. They want hand-outs.

More well to do and the youth vote want change.

Black? Well... no one has brought this up yet (as far as I know), but they are showing themselves to be one racist group of people.. voting for Obama simply because of the level of skin pigment he has.

[Klast Brell]

Black? Well... no one has brought this up yet (as far as I know), but they are showing themselves to be one racist group of people.. voting for Obama simply because of the level of skin pigment he has.

If that is true then the whites who vote for Clinton are equally racist. Heck all the white republicans who didn't vote for Alan Keyes are a bunch of crackers as well.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Black? Well... no one has brought this up yet (as far as I know), but they are showing themselves to be one racist group of people.. voting for Obama simply because of the level of skin pigment he has.

If that is true then the whites who vote for Clinton are equally racist. Heck all the white republicans who didn't vote for Alan Keyes are a bunch of crackers as well.

I guess you don't have a grasp of statistics, Klast. If white people split their vote evenly among a white candidate and a black candidate, that means race probably doesn't enter into their decision much. But if blacks go for a black candidate 92% of the time, what does that tell you? I swear, sometimes I think you're half-way intelligent, and then you spout something on par with Rsak.

[Partha]

Wow, and the Rethugs on the board call ME racist.

Hey, Embar? You've got to remember something - there have been black candidates on the Dem primary ballots in the last several elections....none of whom got ~90% of the black vote, and that same ~90% of the black vote keep voting for White Democrats in the general election. Trying to pin it on 'racism' only shows your obsession with color.

[Klast Brell]

I guess you don't have a grasp of statistics, Klast. If white people split their vote evenly among a white candidate and a black candidate, that means race probably doesn't enter into their decision much. But if blacks go for a black candidate 92% of the time, what does that tell you? I swear, sometimes I think you're half-way intelligent, and then you spout something on par with Rsak.

You should specify democrats. Because white republicans sure avoided voting for Keyes in the last 2 republican presidential primaries. What percent of the white vote did keyes get before he dropped out?

[Embar Angylwrath]

Wow, and the Rethugs on the board call ME racist.

Hey, Embar? You've got to remember something - there have been black candidates on the Dem primary ballots in the last several elections....none of whom got ~90% of the black vote, and that same ~90% of the black vote keep voting for White Democrats in the general election. Trying to pin it on 'racism' only shows your obsession with color.

Then explain to me why, all other things being equal, blacks suport Obama at a 92% to 8% ratio. What is it that blacks see in Obama that they don't see in Hillary? Why is the gap so wide?

I await your dodge of the issue....

[Embar Angylwrath]

I guess you don't have a grasp of statistics, Klast. If white people split their vote evenly among a white candidate and a black candidate, that means race probably doesn't enter into their decision much. But if blacks go for a black candidate 92% of the time, what does that tell you? I swear, sometimes I think you're half-way intelligent, and then you spout something on par with Rsak.

You should specify democrats. Because white republicans sure avoided voting for Keyes in the last 2 republican presidential primaries. What percent of the white vote did keyes get before he dropped out?

Non-sequiter, Klast. If we're comparing apples to apples, what percentage of black votes did Keyes get (as a percentage of the overall black republican vote)? Honestly, I haven't looked, so I could get my ass handed to me here.. but since you're so familiar with the issue, illuminate us.

[Partha]

Wow, and the Rethugs on the board call ME racist.

Hey, Embar? You've got to remember something - there have been black candidates on the Dem primary ballots in the last several elections....none of whom got ~90% of the black vote, and that same ~90% of the black vote keep voting for White Democrats in the general election. Trying to pin it on 'racism' only shows your obsession with color.

Then explain to me why, all other things being equal, blacks suport Obama at a 92% to 8% ratio. What is it that blacks see in Obama that they don't see in Hillary? Why is the gap so wide?

I await your dodge of the issue....

If I had to guess, I'd say it's because since South Carolina, the Clintons have actively campaigned against African Americans.

At any rate, race isn't the factor you think it is.

http://cbs2.com/national/pennsylvania.e ... 06131.html

About one in five voters said the race of the candidates was among the top factors in their vote. About as many said that about the candidates' gender. White voters who said race was a factor supported Clinton over Obama by 3-to-1, while whites who said race wasn't a factor divided between Clinton and Obama more evenly

Do we call THEM racist, too? Or is your anger selective?

[Embar Angylwrath]

You dodged. I know its your reflex, but try to answer my questions. To refresh your memory:

Explain to me why, all other things being equal, blacks suport Obama at a 92% to 8% ratio. What is it that blacks see in Obama that they don't see in Hillary? Why is the gap so wide?

The Clintons have long marshalled the black vote, chuckles. Why is the black votenow turning against Hillary?

(Hint: research black sentiment on Obama in 2007, then watch the reasons why the black community started to coalesce around Obama. You'll find that at first, blacks were wary of Obama because of his white mothe, which is racist, and then began to support him as a because they decided he was black enough, again, racist)

You really can't tell me the policy positions of Obama (does he have any?) made a differecne here.

[Arkaron]

It's hard to say. It may be that for the first time, African Americans feel as though they have a candidate who is genuinely "for" them, and not straight SNL-Kill-Whitey fodder like Jessie Jackson and the like, which has not happened with other politically powerful members of their cohort. They may identify more with Obama because of how he was raised--single parent, some grandparents later--no matter how much his life differs intrisically from their own; sort of like that stupid flag question during the Democratic "debates". The woman who asked that was obviously a Clinton supporter, and she--and apparently millions of other women across the nation--actually thinks that because Clinton is female, she'll have some empathy or understanding of what it's like to be a woman in America, regardless of her status as one of the most privledged, pampered women in the country. She probably hasn't done her own hair or purchased her own clothes for a decade or more. She doesn't know what it's like to raise children in America either, since I'm sure they hired Mary fucking Poppins as soon as they popped out Chelsea.

I can't support Clinton because of how she talks about higher education. As if she has any fucking idea about what it is like to go to school today. I don't want more loans, I want university to be affordable in the first place.

I also can't support Clinton because it seems pretty clear that as soon as that shit went down with Monica, she sat Bill down and gave him the option of going through a very public, humiliating divorce, or having his assistance when she ran for office herself--which she did against a near non-entity in New York--to establish herself to go for the presidency.

I do remember some limited discussion in his own community about if Obama was "black enough" to run, which struck me as kind of dumb.

[Partha]

You dodged. I know its your reflex, but try to answer my questions. To refresh your memory:

Explain to me why, all other things being equal, blacks suport Obama at a 92% to 8% ratio. What is it that blacks see in Obama that they don't see in Hillary? Why is the gap so wide?

Explain how 'all other things' are equal. I don't see it. Obama is much less likely to be interventionist in foreign policy and Hillary is much more attuned towards big business that blacks distrust. There ARE differences, you know.

The Clintons have long marshalled the black vote, chuckles. Why is the black votenow turning against Hillary?

(Hint: research black sentiment on Obama in 2007, then watch the reasons why the black community started to coalesce around Obama. You'll find that at first, blacks were wary of Obama because of his white mothe, which is racist, and then began to support him as a because they decided he was black enough, again, racist)

Wow, mindreading and tripe all in one post.

Initially (check the exit polls, O muse) blacks did NOT support Obama overwhelmingly. Black support did not start really dropping off until Bill Clinton made race an issue prior to South Carolina. Indeed, blacks (not being a unit that looks to race as being the number one factor, a contention borne out by my link with hard data instead of Embarish glue-huffing) are familiar with black candidates who cannot draw white support, and are therefore more likely to hold off on rushing to a black politician merely because he's black. It wasn't until after Iowa and South Carolina, where he proved significant numbers of whites WOULD support him that the movement happened.

But go on and on about the race of his mother and how that proves blacks are racist. Tell me, do you put your lawn jockeys out front in pride? Or in back because you're secretly ashamed to show them in public?

[Kulaf]

http://www.cnn.com/tshirt/?headline=Cli ... r.vote.cnn

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

I support Ark's thinking on Hillary Clinton 100%, it's not even that I necessarily support Obama more on his platforms, but I can NOT support hillary Clinton because she stands for nothing, and a person who stands for nothing will fall for anything.

[Fallakin Kuvari]

Did I mention that this is why women shouldn't be allowed to run for president?

They'll never admit defeat.

[Partha]

Well, except for those other two who ran for President before Hillary.

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

Did I mention that this is why women shouldn't be allowed to run for president?

They'll never admit defeat.

And what happens to you at home when you're wife's PMSing ? Now make her the leader of the free world and give her access to nuclear weapons =p