Sorry Romney

[Partha]

And to Garr and the other athiests........ask yourself one question.........why did evolution/natural selection place within all humanity the idea of god?

The idea of god is a construct to answer questions unknowable with moral guidance added.

[Garrdor]

If the monkey becomes smart enough - he'll ask 'why'.

The dreadfulness of nonexistence and nonconsciousness is too much for some 'unique gems' on this infected planet.

[Klast Brell]

God does not hold guilty those who have not heard the teachings of Jesus. Which is why Jesus told his disciples to spread his word. Theoretically those on another planet.....should they exist......would need to recieve Gods laws in a different manner.

This is what I am lead to understand as well.

By that logic everyone who has never heard "the word" is saved. Only those who have actually heard "the word" have any chance of going to hell. The best way to save as many people as possible is to NOT SPREAD THE WORD.

[Garrdor]

But Klast -

The word of god will come to only the most advanced of species - at any cost!

If we all suddenly forgot about God's word... there would certainally be another set of tablets falling from the sky. Maybe this time it will be in the form of text on Paris Hilton's Blackberry.

[Klast Brell]

ask yourself one question.........why did evolution/natural selection place within all humanity the idea of god?

Thanks for pitching us a softball.
Picture a time before even the most fundamental laws of science were understood. You have only your own observations of the world around you with which to make any sense of world around you. One of the first things you can deduce empirically is cause and effect. When you bang on the rock, the rock breaks. Thus you understand that when something happens it is because it is made to happen. The rock breaks because you bang on it. You made it break. So why do other things happen? The easiest answer is because someone is making them happen. Someone is making the sun rise, cross the sky and fall, only to rise again the next day.

And until Isaac Newton gave us the laws of motion in 1687 the simplest answer was that someone was turning the sun around the sky. And the same goes for everything that was once a mystery to mankind. We do not understand why something happens. There must be a cause. That cause is God. God makes the seasons change. God makes the rain.

[Garrdor]

A nice bedtime placeholder until we reach our true enlightenment.

[Arathena]

I have a theoreticl question for the poeple participating in this thread. If, as Christians claim, the only way to salvation is through the acceptance of Christ, then what would be the fate of sentient species that have evolved on other planets (for the sake of argument, assume they exist)? Did God leave them out of the party? Are they just smart animals with no soul?

This is somethng that troubles me about Christianity. I am a challenger of the faith, meaning I struggle with it. As someone grounded in science, I know the odds of life (including sentient life) evolving elsewhere in the universe is almost a certainty. Ironically, the thing that would prove to me the existance of god, a Christian god, would be the absence of any sentient life other than what passes for it on this planet. (Garrdor excepted).

So, your thoughts on this? Are sentient aliens consigned to hell simply because they weren't fortunate enough to evolve on the planet where god sent his only son?

My answer to the question is that he who seeks to know the truth and who acts and thinks righteously, that is, in a manner consistent with the spirit of God's laws, then he shall not be judged as wanting. No man can live without sin, and at times in his life, no man's faith is unwavering. But the important thing is not knowing with certainty, but rather, seeking the Lord and trying. It has been called the 'baptism of desire'. That you seek truth, even if you misunderstand it, and you do right, as best you can, that is enough. This is not far from what I understand current Catholic doctrine on the subject to be.

Now this can only be applied to those beings, human or elsewise, who bear the knowledge of Good and Evil. That which is innocent cannot be judged wanting.

And, for myself, I can only try to recognize the inconsistencies in my understanding of the Lord, and try to make that understanding more perfect. And I cannot accept that believing that a man got nailed to a tree for my personal sins alone will save me. I can believe that if I seek the Lord, and having found him, worship him, and that if I live in the way that His Son showed us, as best I understand it, then I should be content in this world, and the next, should it exist.

[Trollbait]

And I cannot accept that believing that a man got nailed to a tree for my personal sins alone will save me. I can believe that if I seek the Lord, and having found him, worship him, and that if I live in the way that His Son showed us, as best I understand it

I am sorry Arathena, but it is quite clear that you cannot be saved by works...only through faith and grace...

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." Galatians 2:16

"I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." Galatians 2:21

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18


"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." John 6:29

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven… Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?" Matthew 7:21-22

"I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:23

[Partha]

Ah, good old Ephesians. To be specific, Ephesians 6:5-8.

5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, 8 <i>because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does</i>, whether he is slave or free.

Would those be 'works'? Nah, couldn't be.

And, of course, we won't even mention the fact that if you take Paul's letter as it's written, there's no such thing as free will among men....(1:11)

11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

[Garrdor]

And I cannot accept that believing that a man got nailed to a tree for my personal sins alone will save me. I can believe that if I seek the Lord, and having found him, worship him, and that if I live in the way that His Son showed us, as best I understand it

I am sorry Arathena, but it is quite clear that you cannot be saved by works...only through faith and grace...

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." Galatians 2:16

"I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." Galatians 2:21

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18


"Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." John 6:29

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven… Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?" Matthew 7:21-22

"I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:23

Anyone here remember the Hammerites in the Thief games?

[Arathena]

The age old game of partial quotes - The devil uses scripture well is the accusation that we will now cast back and forth. I do not like playing this game, because it will convince none, but, I will play it for the sakes of giggles. By the way, cutting the middle out of a sentence? That's an absolutely awesome piece of quotational snippery. Let us brush away the dust cast on the picture.

All quotations are from the New International Version.

Matthew 7:, The Sermon On the Mount.

Verses 15-23.

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

I dunno. I kinda draw the opposite conclusion you do - I may cast my lot in with the law of the Lord, and do his will, and enter heaven, or I may cry out and prophesy in his name, and I will be cast out. Let us bolster this with the same sermon, drawing earlier:

Matthew 5: Sermon on the Mount

13"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.

14"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Faith and deed are a conjoined whole, one inseperable from the other. Without deed, faith is a lie. Yet deed in hopes of reward is hypocrasy. It is only through the two together that we can seek God. We do not follow the Law because it is the Law, we follow the Law because it points the way beyond the self to God.

I'll play with your quotes from the letters and John later. Though, it's odd that to support your self, you have to go scrabbling for quotes from men who never met Jesus...

[Trollbait]

I'll play with your quotes from the letters and John later. Though, it's odd that to support your self, you have to go scrabbling for quotes from men who never met Jesus...

Starting with the above....if you were the least bit scholarly in the New testament you would never had made such an idiotic statement.

The Apostle Paul wrote Galatians and Ephesians. The Apostle Paul met Jesus.

If you are wrong on this point what else are you wrong about?

You are arguing something is is clearly evident in Scripture.

We are saved by grace alone. Period.

Now once you are truly saved then your works will demonstrate that.

I think we are arguing at cross purposes.

A person who has not accepted God's Grace and Salvation cannot enter into Heaven by doing good things for people but a person who has accepted God's grace and Salvation will enter Heaven and while on Earth will do good works BECAUSE they are saved.

Partha, in the scripture you quoted you are confusing rewards in Heaven with getting to Heaven in the first place. In order to get to Heaven you need to be saved by God's Grace. Once in Heaven your rewards will depend on your works. I think the passage is fairly clear.

Here are some links with sermons or whatnot that help hammer out this issue.

http://www.prca.org/refwitness/2000/2000oct29.html

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/do ... bgrace.htm

http://www.abideinchrist.com/selah/jan9.html

[superwalrus]

Starting with the above....if you were the least bit scholarly in the New testament you would never had made such an idiotic statement.

lol scholarly about the new testament? Aren't you some redneck in the armed forces? I don't get it.

Walrus

[Trollbait]

lol scholarly about the new testament?

Apparently I am scholarly enough in the New Testament to know that the Apostle Paul met Jesus...

[Ddrak]

The Apostle Paul wrote Galatians and Ephesians. The Apostle Paul met Jesus.

Wait, what?

[Arathena]

I'll play with your quotes from the letters and John later. Though, it's odd that to support your self, you have to go scrabbling for quotes from men who never met Jesus...

Starting with the above....if you were the least bit scholarly in the New testament you would never had made such an idiotic statement.

The Apostle Paul wrote Galatians and Ephesians. The Apostle Paul met Jesus.

The Apostle Paul had a single vision upon the road, and after being cast away from the community of early Christians, for his well known persecution of those who followed the Christ, was taken to the Apostles, among them Matthias, who was chosen by lot after the expulsion of Judas Iscariot. Never did he walk with Jesus.

And yes, those sermons make your point as clear as mud. Thank you for the reminder that I do need to seek out proper theological training, for we probably are arguing the same thing. I am well reminded to seek it at the hands of the heirs to the traditions of Peter, too.

[Trollbait]

Never did he walk with Jesus.

OOOHHHH so now he did not WALK with Jesus.....but we are agreed that he did actually meet Jesus, right? That he was chosen specifically by Christ to spread His word, right?

1 Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"

5 "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.

"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6 "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."

7 The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8 Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9 For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.

10 In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!"
"Yes, Lord," he answered.

11 The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12 In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight."

13 "Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your people in Jerusalem. 14 And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name."

15 But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."

17 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength.

Saul in Damascus and Jerusalem
Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. 20 At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God. 21 All those who heard him were astonished and asked, "Isn't he the man who raised havoc in Jerusalem among those who call on this name? And hasn't he come here to take them as prisoners to the chief priests?" 22 Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah.

23 After many days had gone by, there was a conspiracy among the Jews to kill him, 24 but Saul learned of their plan. Day and night they kept close watch on the city gates in order to kill him. 25 But his followers took him by night and lowered him in a basket through an opening in the wall.

26 When he came to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples, but they were all afraid of him, not believing that he really was a disciple. 27 But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles. He told them how Saul on his journey had seen the Lord and that the Lord had spoken to him, and how in Damascus he had preached fearlessly in the name of Jesus. 28 So Saul stayed with them and moved about freely in Jerusalem, speaking boldly in the name of the Lord. 29 He talked and debated with the Hellenistic Jews, [a] but they tried to kill him. 30 When the believers learned of this, they took him down to Caesarea and sent him off to Tarsus.

31 Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace and was strengthened. Living in the fear of the Lord and encouraged by the Holy Spirit, it increased in numbers.

I was not aware that it was a requirement to have phyiscally walked with Jesus to pen Scriptures inspired by the Holy Spirit, but whatever. I am beginning to suspect that you are Catholic.

Paul wrote extensively about Salvation by Grace and that to say Salvation comes by works is to say that we merit Salvation. That we worked for it so we deserve it. Is that what you are trying to say? That you are entitled to Salvation if you do enough good deeds to deserve to be saved?

[Garrdor]

Starting with the above....if you were the least bit scholarly in the New testament you would never had made such an idiotic statement.

lol scholarly about the new testament? Aren't you some redneck in the armed forces? I don't get it.

Walrus

Woah... he's in the military?

I get it now

SUPPORT OUR TREWPZ!!!!

[Trollbait]

Woah... he's in the military?

No, not anymore.

I get it now

I seriously doubt that you do.

[Fetten]

I think this may be an argument of schematics as far as salvation through grace or works alone.

I disagree that anyone is saved by grace alone. I believe you are saved by grace/faith and works.
By saying you are saved by grace alone seems to me all one would need to do is acknowledge Christ as savior and the presence of God, but would give you a free ticket to go about and commit dastardly deeds all you wanted. That is up until Judgement day where all you basically had to say was, "Yep, I did all those bad things, broke all those commandents(especially this on, it was my favorite), oh yeah I did that too... Um...., I'm sorry... Forgive me all my transgressions, my Lord and Savior!! Gate is over here you said??"

I think the problem is what some people have as a definition of what 'works" is to them. As I understand it works is more then just doing good deeds. It's not just living by the golden rule and doing unto others as others do unto you. It's all those things and living as best as one can to the example that was set before them by Christ. It's adhering to the tenets of the Word, doing good things in life and helping your fellow man. It's not being afraid of your faith and helping to spread God's word to all that will listen. By witnessing to others, you help those with questions of their own faith make a choice. That preserves man's free will to make the choice to accept Christ and live in salvation or not. God did not intend for us to keep his word a secret that we only hold onto for ourselves individually. By having faith in and honoring God and Christ, by living as best you can to his example and acknowledging when you fall then asking forgiveness will you then be saved.
To me Salvation is by grace and works and not mutually exclusive, with nothing given to us totally free.

As far as the babies and people dying who have not heard the word or given the chance to accept through normal means. I also would think that God would reveal himself to those souls and give them the opportunity to make a choice. He is God after all and how he goes about this is His business and not really mine to question. It would seem to me to be rather malevolent to create a soul to merely test other souls and not give that soul another care. Again though this is God and his secrets are his and not for us.

My dilema is what about those who go though life having faith and living as best they can by Christ's example. That then die in a horrible consuming way such as cancer. Some would say it is a test of the person's faith. I guess to me that would really only be the case if that person lived in such a way that was sheltered from all the other trials we all go through in life. Why must a person go through that type of trial if they faced all the other trials and have unquestioning faith? Is their salvation different? Is the salvation of those around the person different because it was a test of their faith?

It's late and I've lost some focus so I'll close with...

lol scholarly about the new testament? Aren't you some redneck in the armed forces? I don't get it

I've been accused of being a redneck in the military...
Accept I have all my teeth, I didn't marry my sister or cousin, no mullet, former military, my parents were married and weren't related otherwise, I didn't go to school with my dad nor do I with my kids because were in the same grade...
Other then that, it's me though...

Oh and Garrdor apparently I'm 3lekt of Fift33n (whatever that is)according to the title under my name up there