Having a miscarriage? Don't do it in Virginia.

[Eidolon Faer]

Sigh...

This appears to be a case of a few jerks screwing it up for everyone.

Clearly the requirement to weigh the fetus is intended to prevent the sort of "miscarried" 8 month 3 week six day old fetuses that are found in dumpsters from time to time. Usually the result of a teenage mother delivering the baby and killing / disposing of it. They want to know if it weighed two grams or three kilograms.

Clearly this is intended to determine whether the fetus would have been viable outside the womb. Which also meshes with the time constraint matching that for reporting any other deceased person.

California's solution to that problem is an "adoption, no questions asked" policy that makes a great deal more sense to me than this law, which I am not in favor of. It's poorly-thought-out Gub'ment meddling, and I have no more patience for that from the Religious Right than I do from the Godless Commies...erm, the Left. Define personhood from the issuing of a Birth Certificate and have done with it from the State's point of view.

However, I suppose that it's entirely predictable that certain elements here should start screaming "ZOMG RUN FOR YOUR LIVES, PRO-LIFE SLIPPERY SLOPE!!!111". After all, it came from a Republican, so some people are going to have blinders on.

[Relbeek Einre]

A little note: Beyond a certain point (I forget exactly), they aren't miscarriages, they're stillbirths.

[Laylee]

A little note: Beyond a certain point (I forget exactly), they aren't miscarriages, they're stillbirths.

Actually, they are medically classified as "spontaneous abortions".

Laylee

[vaulos]

Riggen- I think you are just failing to appreciate the GREAT and SUBSTANTIAL pain that goes along with getting blindsided outside a bar. If this is just lack of experience on your part...well good for you- you'll live longer. But it sets well inside your vague definition of torture.

Or as another objection, I would merely ask, "Who decides when a pain is GREAT and SUBSTANTIAL?"

[wende darling]

Miscarriage happens before 12 weeks. Spontanious abortion happens between 12 and 26 weeks. Stillbirth happens after 26 weeks.

[Riggen]

Now that you mention it, having worked in the past as a bouncer I'm conversant with the type of violence that occurs in bars--it gets pretty bloody sometimes. I've also taken my fair share of bumps and bruises while training in and teaching various forms of martial arts. Thus, I can honestly say I'm something of an authority in this respect. There are far, far worse pains out there than being sucker punched. I've experienced some of those too--gut twisting wish-you-were-dead visceral agony. I know the spectrum of pain in all its terrible glory. So no, I don't agree that getting blindsided constitutes great pain. It's a pale thing compared to what's out there.

[vaulos]

Ahh, now you are getting closer to my point. Indeed it does pale in comparison. But then, compared to being skinned alive, having to weigh and measure some bloody tissue is nothing! What makes your comparison prove that being assaulted at a bar isn't torture, but yet my comparison doesn't prove the same?

[jookkor]

you dont get to down 17 boilermakers before being tortured usually.

[Riggen]

I figured it would be evident that the trauma of getting punched ALSO pales in comparison to the trauma of weighing and measuring the bloody tissue of your child, so I didn't bother pointing it out. Well, consider it now pointed out. Getting skinned alive is certainly worse, but in no way does that change the applicability of the term. "Why is that?" you might ask. Because torture ain't just for dungeons anymore.

Most people would agree that being strapped down and getting your fingernails ripped out is torture. But I bet you'd rather go through that than be drawn and quartered, skinned alive, or burned at the stake. And why would that be? Perhaps because getting your fingernails yanked out pales in comparison to being nailed to a wooden pole and set on fire. Yet it's still torture. Well duh, that's because some forms of torture pale in comparison to others. As I have pointed out before, there is a range of things that qualify as torture. That range widens when you recall that the torture we're discussing is psychological rather than physical.

What's the upshot?

We're agreed that getting punched doesn't fall within that range. We disagree whether HB1677 does, and consequently you claim that my usage of the word "torture" should be regarded as rhetoric. Though all discourse can be considered rhetoric (those damned dictionaries again) I take your usage to mean "language that is pretentious or insincere."

Let's put that to rest at least.

I can assure you that my usage is completely honest and accurately reflects my evaluation of what this bill would inflict on sufferers of miscarriage. So assuming we're looking at it the same way, it's not rhetoric.

I assume you'll want to further dispute the nature of torture itself. I'm game, bring it. But please leave the coy disingenuous crap at home. It only pisses me off.

[Ddrak]

I dunno - I've heard that ripping fingernails out is pretty painful, especially if they get infected after it's done.

Dd

[Ariannda Kusanagi]

So i'm a little late on this one but the arguments about seeknig medical attention caught my eye. You have the right to refuse treatment, no matter how badly you are hurt, however medical personelle also have the right to provide care in the case of unconciousness or a mentally altered state, which could be the case in the certain women feeling extreme loss. They would be treated, however what is a police officer going to do, examine her and say "oh she's having complication , we better call EMS !" i doubt it.

Men and women don't share the same physical or emotional makeup. This isn't a pror-choice or pro-life arguement, it's partly about tact. Wende has a point, alot of women are pregnant but miscarry before they know they're pregnant, they just have a heavier period. Should i have to wear a pad and save every bit of tissue and report it as a miscarriage cause i was a week late on my pregnancy ?

Most pregnancoes that are lost are in the first 12 weeks, the sex can't be determined at that point, so it's not an issue. There's a certain point where a miscarriage occurs and the woman is sent home to await the onset of labor, should she deliver at home does she need a signed document saying "hey don't worry her baby was already dead" ?

The bill is stupid. The basic principle is perhaps in the right place but the follow through is a horrible approach,

[maltheos]

Why is this torture? When my father died, we had to report his death (and I believe within 12 hours). Why isn't anyone suggesting that to be torture? We were distraght, and still had to report it! And lord help us, we even had to call someone to come take his body! The bastards!

Seriously, are you people listening to yourselves? I'll accept arguments for the pro-choicers that it's no one's business...because it's just a bit of tissue. And I'll accept the pro-life argument that someone has died, and so it must be reported. What I won't accept is pro-choice people arguing that this is torture, or pro-lifer's arguing that it's a privacy violation.

I can understand the report of the death of a living breathing person in 12 hours thing. There are health considerations in disposal of the corpse, and this is (generally) not aplicable in the case of a miscarriage. There are legal considerations -- there is good cause for anyone with contractual or other legal agreements obligations to the deceased or by the deceased to them to know of their death promptly( this is also not the case in a miscarriage). THe deceased property will change ownership at the time of death to their legal heirs ( also not aplicable). Alll the reasons necessitating a 12 hour notification for a death seem to also involve obligations or public health considerations. Miscarriages do not seem to posess either. I see no reason to force them to hew to a prompt notification standard.

As to the torture allegations on the other side. That is overstating your position. It is unpleasnat and unnecessary, and therefore should not be made law. That is as far as it goes. Calling it torture is hyperbole. It is no different psychologically from any other death reporting. I just see no pressing need for such a prompt notification standard, and thus I feel that this is a law that should not be passed as it has negative impacts on those subject to it, and no balancing positive effect.

[maltheos]

As to torture. That word along with "emotional pain" are pet peves of mine. They are so vaguely used as to be useless terms. If I tickle you after you have told me to stop am I torturing you? How about if you ask me to whip you and I do so -- am I torturing you then? How about if you enjoy what I am doing to you, even though there is a pain component -- is that torture?

A valid case can be made that any of the above is or is not torture. Unfortuantely the word has been used so much and so vaguely so as to be nearly meaningless. I tend to prefer a defintion of torture that has the following features. 1) The individual feels pain.
2) The individual is subjected to it against their will. 3) The pain is extreme enough in some respect so as to introduce extreme physiological or psychological effects.( such as blackouts or discociation)( this excludes the pain and suffering of waiting in line or finding your spawn camped by enshadowed). and lastly 4) The pain is deliberately inflicted with malice by the party inflicting the pain.

[Riggen]

Your definition of torture generally agrees with my use of it. Thanks for the support, though I doubt that's what you intended.

[Atira]

It is torture to be the subject of an interogation after you have had a miscarriage. Pure and simple. Any woman who has endured one, or more which is often the case, has the right to confidenciality about the issue with her doctor. Its a medical immergency. Not a crime. SHeesh, what a totally backward and vicious law !! its outrageous, Draconian and oppressive. Plain and simple. Talk about taking a step backward a century or two.

Here's some math ...for every 3 babies carried to term , 5 are lost through spontaneous miscarriages. How many babies are born in Virginia ? How many tens of thousands of police questionings will there be , if this law is passed ? Will the police get training on how to conduct them ? I doubt it. I dont think the state has the money or the motivation. It's scare tactics. Intimidation. The man pushing for this law has a hidden ajenda. He has no compassion for the woman who has suffered the loss, and been through a very painful physical and emotional trama. Being interrogated by the police will have even worse effects on the mother, instilling fear and guilt , ontop of emotional loss and berivement.

What is he trying to prevent ? laws are made for protection , and meant to produce better living conditions. What does this politicion want from this law ? To incarcerate young girls, that dont seek medical attention ? How can a country make such a demand , when your medical care is "pay for it or go without it".... So they turn it over to the police ? Barbaric.

My question/comment would be this : what is the purpose of this law ? who is it protecting ? Certainly not the woman. Its a criminal investigation, no matter how you slice it, hense the jail sentence if one is not reported. So Virginia's jails will be filled with girls and woman that didnt call the cops when they miscarried ? Its harsh punishment for a natural occurance.

There is a hidden ajenda here. Is abortion illegal in virginia ? Is birth control and sex education promoted, accurate and easily accessed ? I think this is probably more about controlling women who carry unwanted pregnancies .

And i always though the statue of liberty was a woman holding a torch. ... thinks about a certain claim of "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness" ..... *sigh* guess that doesnt apply to Virginia women

Tira