Hey, Mr. President, we can't prove these Muslims are guilty!

[Narith]

If we put our own citizens on death row because we had the evidence at the time to convict them only to discover 10 or 20 or even 30 years down the road that they were truely innocent and that the evidence used against them was faulty... Imagine how many of the men and women in this prison being held possibly for the rest of thier lives are innocent. If we discovered that even with strong evidence that innocents still slip through, then how many innocents will slip through when we have no evidence?

You may think I jump to hysterics, that the prison camps of today are nothing like the prison camps that the japanese were placed in, or even the jews, gays, blacks, gypsies, and so on were placed in in Germany, but I know history will prove you wrong. If you do not learn from your history you are doomed to repeat it.

There are cases every day where the patriot act is applied to non-terrorist crimes, they first started applying it to only the most horrific of crimes and now are applying it to something as common as gang violence, this only after 4 years, what about the next 4 years, or the 4 after that? I am not saying these crimes should not go unpunished, however to call them terrorism in order to deny your citizens legal council, a fair trial, all legal rights... You call me hysterical after this is occuring right in your own back yard? It will not be long before our own citizens are placed in these camps for speaking out against the American government.

During 9/11 terrorists tried to change America forever............... They succeded.

[superwalrus]

lol I love it when liberals say "oh look the terrorists succeeded because of x/y!"

1. No real Americans have had their civil rights violated because of the terrorist attacks

2. America has not made its policy in the middle east more lenient

3. Americans have not stopped supporting Israel.

The simple fact is, these people weren't rounded up off the streets. They did something wrong and now they are fucked for the rest of their lives, and I am glad. Only people that have done something wrong should be worried.

Walrus

[Relbeek Einre]

1. No real Americans have had their civil rights violated because of the terrorist attacks

You haven't been paying attention.

The simple fact is, these people weren't rounded up off the streets. They did something wrong and now they are fucked for the rest of their lives, and I am glad. Only people that have done something wrong should be worried.

How do you know this? We don't even know the names of everyone being held there, much less the reasons for their detention. "Blind faith",. Mr. Walrus.

[Riggen]

This is an actual question, not an argument. Is information obtained via torture admissible in any applicable court?

For instance, If during the course of torture someone reveals themselves to be a substantial threat to security (say they teach terrorists how to build dirty bombs or something) is there an open, legal recourse to dealing with that threat? Or would such a coerced admission be legally useless?

[Relbeek Einre]

Is information obtained via torture admissible in any applicable court?

No, it isn't, normally. Information extracted from a third party that leads to a find of material evidence .. the material evidence could be used against the defendant, maybe. Possibly. But no information gotten as a direct result of torture could be used as evidence to show the truth of the matter asserted.

[Torakus]

Riggen,

Under typical rules of evidence in the U.S. any confession or evidence encountered due to such confession induced under distress is inadmissable. However the federal government, via the Department of Defense, has stated clearly in these cases that since they are not bound by traditional rules of evidence, that evidence procured via torture that is both reliable and confirmable, will be used.

There is a thread somewhere on the board where I argued the merits of this policy and the bleeding hearts argued against it.

Torakus

[Embar Angylwrath]

Is information obtained via torture admissible in any applicable court?

No, it isn't, normally. Information extracted from a third party that leads to a find of material evidence .. the material evidence could be used against the defendant, maybe. Possibly. But no information gotten as a direct result of torture could be used as evidence to show the truth of the matter asserted.

That's why I say ship them to Pakistan, and let the Pakistanis take their statements. Then ship them back here for trial.

[Partha]

Another Republican outsourcing scheme.

[Klast Brell]

Gee Klast, now your saying Al-qaeda didnt take down the trade center?

What i'm saying is that the 19 hijackers who took down the trade center died in the attack.
The 200 guys in Gitmo did not participate in that attack.
Even the mighty USA does not have enough evidence to that they commited any crime to go to trial.

[Narith]

lol I love it when liberals say "oh look the terrorists succeeded because of x/y!"

1. No real Americans have had their civil rights violated because of the terrorist attacks

2. America has not made its policy in the middle east more lenient

3. Americans have not stopped supporting Israel.

The simple fact is, these people weren't rounded up off the streets. They did something wrong and now they are fucked for the rest of their lives, and I am glad. Only people that have done something wrong should be worried.

Walrus

Ummm what hole have you been hiding in? The simple fact is that laws that were hastily passed after 9/11 caused by the terrorist attack (the patriot act) that was meant to be used against terrorists is used against not only domestic terrorists which are our own citizens and violate thier civial rights, but are currently and repeatedly being used against non-terrorism related crimes. American citizens ARE having thier civial rights violated when they are accused (not convicted) of non-terrorist crimes, hell there is a link to a story on one of them above.

So you still wish to say that no American has had thier civial rights violated because of the terrorist attack?

Just because right this second they are not having the round-ups like the Nazis did to the Jewish people, does not mean they can't or won't in the future all based off ripples caused by this attack. You can not seriously tell me that America is exactly the same free land that we were before the attack.

[superwalrus]

lol

my world has not changed a smidgen. None of my civil rights nor the rights of anyone I know have been violated. The simple fact remains, if you don't do anything wrong, you are safe. What are you people hiding?

Also, 500 muslims that were picked up off the battlefield in another country makes you scream Civil Rights abuses? I love seeing unchecked rampant liberalism.

Walrus

[Relbeek Einre]

The simple fact remains, if you don't do anything wrong, you are safe. What are you people hiding?

Hail, a blatant troll. You're not stupid enough to believe this.

[Embar Angylwrath]

Another Republican outsourcing scheme.

NAFTA baby... if the Pakistanis can do it better and cheaper, why not?

[vaulos]

Klast has actually pointed out a very real problem. How do you prosecute individuals who are part of an organization which is designed to facilitate the destruction of the US, yet are more or less ignorant of the details and plots? The answer of course, is that you cannot successfully do so in an American style court. There simply isn't enough evidence.

So what do you do? Let them go so that they can rejoin the effort to kill Americans? Not if you are part of a responsible government you don't. As Tony Blair basically put it in his response to the Lib-Democrats in Britain (who are calling him on the carpet for similar measures the P.M. has implimented in the U.K.), the governments obligation to protect its own citizens must trump the rights of foreigners.

[Partha]

Another Republican outsourcing scheme.

NAFTA baby... if the Pakistanis can do it better and cheaper, why not?

Pakistan's not part of NAFTA, that's one.

Americans are supposed to be holding up moral values and liberty to the world, that's two.

Can't even believe your own propaganda, huh?

[Crelone]

Americans are supposed to be holding up moral values and liberty to the world

Breaking my normal rule here, but Why Partha? Why should the US be holding up moral values and liberty to the world? They really aren't our problem until they come here to our soil and then and ONLY then should we hold anyone to our standards. Unless of course they should commit an act of war upon us, then we should smack the shit out of them no matter where or who they are.

With out a doubt that statement is the #1 reason the world hates us. We need to stay the hell out of their business until it interferes with ours.

[Partha]

Americans are supposed to be holding up moral values and liberty to the world

Breaking my normal rule here, but Why Partha? Why should the US be holding up moral values and liberty to the world? They really aren't our problem until they come here to our soil and then and ONLY then should we hold anyone to our standards. Unless of course they should commit an act of war upon us, then we should smack the shit out of them no matter where or who they are.

With out a doubt that statement is the #1 reason the world hates us. We need to stay the hell out of their business until it interferes with ours.

Because your Fearless Leader said so.

The world seeks America’s leadership, looks for leadership from a country whose values are freedom and justice and equality. Ours should not be the paternalistic leadership of an arrogant big brother, but the inviting and welcoming leadership of a great & noble nation. We have a collective responsibility as citizens of the greatest & freest nation in the world. America must not retreat within its borders. Or greatest export is freedom, and we have a moral obligation to champion it throughout the world.

Source: “A Charge to Keep”, p.240 Dec 9, 1999

Like I said, can't even believe your own propaganda.

[Narith]

lol

my world has not changed a smidgen. None of my civil rights nor the rights of anyone I know have been violated. The simple fact remains, if you don't do anything wrong, you are safe. What are you people hiding?

Also, 500 muslims that were picked up off the battlefield in another country makes you scream Civil Rights abuses? I love seeing unchecked rampant liberalism.

Walrus

But isn't that the whole point of this, is that there is not enough evidence to convict any of them in a court of law meaning that some may have done something wrong however most probably did not? In fact it has been proven that at least 1 person is there for simply knowing someone who did something wrong. In America supposedly you are innocent until proven guilty, which we all know is a farce, however if they did do something wrong then there should be enough evidence for a charge in court. The fact that there isn't leads one to believe that though many of these people probably had plotted against or had plans to commit a crime they never actually carried it out.

Lastly I would like to point out that you most likely do do something wrong, have you ever sped? Littered? Been naked in your own house? Had sex with your wife (in certain states) in any way other than vaginal (that includes oral) pre-2000? Sworn in front of a teddy bear on Sunday in Michigan, used vulgarities in the hearing range of a minor or a woman, ect, ect, ect.... Every citizen in this state breaks a law on a weekly if not daily basis, most do not even realise it, what happens when something like the patriot act is used to encompass even the most minor of crimes. You claim you do not do any thing wrong but in someone's eyes in this country you do on a daily basis, and one day if this is allowed to continue you may wind up no better off than these people being held against your will while commiting no true crime.

So Walrus, you think you are in a safe little world because you do not know of the laws you are breaking, but if they have spread the patriot act to encompass this much they most deffinatly will not stop. America has changed, your world has changed, you are just too blind to see it.

*And yes Beeker I know he is just trolling, but it is still fun to point and laugh at him for playing the see no evil hear no evil game*

[superwalrus]

lol we break all these laws and nothing happens to us....

I love it when the liberals play the sky is falling game.

Some muslims from some other country got thrown in jail? I really don't care one bit, and am actually glad. We're in a war, and the only way to win is complete attrition. For our way of life to survive, we will need to wipe out another way of life. Its how the world has always worked, one group has to destroy another to survive. Its funny how pussified some of you people have become. The world is a horrible place, and we have to do horrible things to survive. Everything you speak of is an illusion. An illusion and a lie to make yourselves feel better and superior. Well, you aren't. You're just scum living in a priveleged world declaring foolish things because you have the luxury to. The difference between you and me is that I know I'm priveleged and I'm willing to take the hard approach and follow the true ideals that will keep me in my position.

Walrus

[Narith]

We are destroying our own way of life, we live in a privilaged world because our fore-fathers faught and died to allow us these privligaes yet we so easily allow them to be taken from us by the very people who are supposed to be protecting these privligaes.

You close your eyes to these things because you chose to and have the right to, eventually you will lose that ability to chose. Some of ther people you call liberal scum are the very ones fighting back to ensure you are able to make the choices you make and not have them made for you.

So yes, the terrorists are winning because they are chaning our way of life. Our way of life is being threatened by the very people who were supposed to be protecting that way of life. Some of us chose to fight back with every chance we get, others like you chose to turn a blind eye.